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Misc Russian Grammar questions
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Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 5057 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes

Speaks: Russian*

Message 33 of 42

29 July 2012 at 2:53pm | IP Logged

Wulfgar wrote:

Thanks; looks like I need to learn about intransitive verbs elsewhere,
since Penguin barely even mentions them.

In lesson 29 of Penguin, the following nuances of short vs long adjectives are defined:
Она такая глупая. = She's so silly.
Она так глупо. = She's so stupid.
Is this correct? (Google translate has it reversed)

Also, in
Она похожа на (своего) отца. = She looks like (her) father.
I first guessed this would be nominative. What's the reason for accusative?

Она так глупа.
In general, short adjectives have been falling into disuse for a very long time and you
can ignore them in many instances. But there are situations where they are needed. For
example words like рад, доволен, согласен, прав, похож and others cannot be replaced by
the full form in the predicate position.
All the prepositions require some case other than nominative. Он похож на кого-то - He
is similar to someone (the most litteral translation).
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Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 5057 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes

Speaks: Russian*

Message 34 of 42

29 July 2012 at 2:54pm | IP Logged

Spiderkat wrote:

The long form adjective expresses a permanent state and the short form
may express also a temporary state. So "она такая глупая" would mean she's silly meaning
she's a silly woman and "она так глупа" would mean she's being silly.

Why do you think so?
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Spiderkat
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5813 days ago
175 posts - 248 votes

Speaks: French*, English
Studies: Russian

Message 35 of 42

29 July 2012 at 4:02pm | IP Logged

Марк wrote:

Spiderkat wrote:

Why do you think so?

That's how I understand it according to what I've read in reading and grammar books.

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Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 5057 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes

Speaks: Russian*

Message 36 of 42

29 July 2012 at 4:34pm | IP Logged

I don't think you are right.
There was a man on the Lingvoforum, whose nick was Шмель. He liked finding deep senses
where there are no them. He explained the difference between мной, мною for example. Such
attempt was called шмелизм on the Lingvoforum. Your thought seems to be a шмелизм to me.
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lingoleng
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Germany
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Message 37 of 42

29 July 2012 at 5:16pm | IP Logged

Марк wrote:

Spiderkat wrote:

The long form adjective expresses a permanent state and the short form may express also a temporary state.

Why do you think so?

Blackwell's "A Comprehensive Russian Grammar" by Terence Wade, 3rd edition 2011:

Wade wrote:

166 The short form: usage. Introductory comments

(1) Both long and short forms may be used predicatively (see 156).

(2) However, there is usually a distinction in meaning, the long form
denoting inherent permanent characteristics (Он злой ‘He is wicked’)
and the short form relating to temporary states (Он г лоден ‘He is
hungry’) or to specific contexts or circumstances (Он прав ‘He is right’
(i.e. about a particular matter)).

(3) Usage depends to a considerable extent on the capacity or incapacity
of a particular adjective to denote both permanent and temporary states.
Thus, Он больн й ‘He is (chronically) sick’ may be contrasted with
Он б лен ‘He is (temporarily) ill’. In adjectives, however, where no such
distinction is possible, long and short forms are virtually synonymous:
Он мный/Он умён ‘He is clever’.

(4) The difference between the two forms of the adjective may be
stylistic, the short form reflecting a more ‘bookish’ style:
Психол гия л чности чень сложн
The psychology of the personality is very complex
and the long form being the ‘colloquial’ variant:
Психол гия л чности чень сл жная

167 Use of the short form to denote temporary state

While the long form implies complete identification of the quality
expressed by the adjective with the person or thing it qualifies, the short
form indicates a temporary state or condition, cf.
Рек б рная
The river is a turbulent one (an inherent characteristic)
and
Сег дня рек спок йна
Today the river is calm (the short form denoting a temporary state)
Similarly Он чень весёлый, б дрый ‘He is very jolly, cheerful’ (i.e.
by nature), but Ты был бодр и в сел и шут л всю дор гу (Koluntsev)
‘You were cheerful and jolly and joked the whole way’, where the short
forms refer to a person’s mood on a particular occasion.

Sorry that some signs got messed up up by the copy-and-paste process, but I hope the general idea is still understandable: The difference inherent vs. temporary is probably not just a phantom. My Russian is not good enough, that's why I don't have an opinion on the matter.
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Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 5057 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes

Speaks: Russian*

Message 38 of 42

29 July 2012 at 6:07pm | IP Logged

There are just certain examples, but it's very far from a real tendency or a rule.
Почему ты сегодня такой веселый? sounds better than Почему ты так весел сегодня?
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Wulfgar
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United States
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Speaks: English*

Message 39 of 42

29 July 2012 at 6:51pm | IP Logged

Thanks all.
Another lesson 29 sentence:
Все девушки, занимавшиеся русским языком...
= All the girls who studied Russian...
why is it занимавшиеся and not занимавшийся ?

Edited by Wulfgar on 29 July 2012 at 7:47pm
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Spiderkat
Diglot
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United States
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Speaks: French*, English
Studies: Russian

Message 40 of 42

29 July 2012 at 7:13pm | IP Logged

In the book it tells you why, just above those examples. As adjective endings they agree in number, gender and case with the noun to which it relates. Which means занимавшиеся is the plural form because it relates to девушки и студенты.

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