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Really impersonal numerical pronoun "one" | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5561 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes  Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 1 of 9 24 July 2012 at 7:31pm | IP Logged | ||
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When correcting on Lang-8, I sometimes find people's usage of "one" a little odd, but I can't really explain why. I'm finding it impossible to find any info on it, because all the websites I come accross are about the use of "one" as an "impersonal personal" pronoun, but I'm after it's use in a more general way:
- I didn't like the green dress, so I tried the red one - He offered coffee, so I asked for a Turkish one. These examples would definitely sound fine to me formulated as direct speech. As indirect speech, they are also ok, but I start start to wonder if I would rephrase them. - He asked me to sing a song, so I sang a Turkish one. sounds a bit odd to me, but for some reason adding another phrase: - He asked me to sing a song, so I sang a Turkish one from my childhood makes it sound better. I did find this site which defines this usage (right there among the first examples) as being a "numerical expression" (which incidently, I find a little odd, as its "singularness" doesn't seem to be its most important quality) but searching for that didn't turn up anything either So, can anyone tell me if there are any grammatical rules and restrictions, or appropriate registers for this use of "one" ? (or point me to a website, of course) Thanks. Edited by schoenewaelder on 24 July 2012 at 7:33pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 2 of 9 24 July 2012 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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I don't think there are strict rules.
the one about the song sounds funny to me, because I was taught that "one" is mainly used to avoid repetition, and having "sing, song, sang" and little else in the sentence is awkward. The longer one is better because there's more content in there. I think rather than impersonal, it's an indefinite pronoun. Also, try searching for it along with the related words mine, theirs, ones (I think especially "ones" is usually more difficult). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| mikonai Diglot Senior Member United States weirdnamewriting.bloRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4930 days ago 178 posts - 281 votes Speaks: English*, Italian Studies: Swahili, German | Message 3 of 9 24 July 2012 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hmm... I hadn't really thought of "one" in those sentences. The first two seem ok,
except that I might rephrase "I tried the red one" to "I tried the red one on." Yes, it puts a preposition at the end of a sentence, but that's the second silliest rule in the English language, and just about any native speaker would phrase it that way without even noticing it. Otherwise it could go "I tried on the red one," which is probably just as natural. The coffee sentence feels a little awkward, but I can't think of how to rephrase it right now. As for the other sentence, I would probably phrase it thusly: "He asked me to sing a song, so I sang one in Turkish." I guess somehow the word "one" in this context wants a preposition with it. The dress and song examples both use "one" in a sense of "this/that one." In the end, I'd say none of them are actually incorrect, just maybe not the most natural structures. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Hampie Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6660 days ago 625 posts - 1009 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Latin, German, Mandarin | Message 4 of 9 24 July 2012 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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One is just merely making the adjective into a noun (because for some weird reason adjectives cannot be nouns in
english). Whenever an adjective would not, alone, describe something enough "one" will not either. With out definition "a ... one" will sound dirty and very, very colloquial... Like hard laborers talking drunk to eatch other after work. "Gimmi one a 'em big ones wunn'ya)" Or, to be very low, some nasty type visiting a brothel asking for a certain type of girl "Today I wanna have a Turkish one". I think it works well when the situation or the milieu implies the meaning, but not otherwise. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Hertz Pro Member United States Joined 4514 days ago 47 posts - 63 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 5 of 9 25 July 2012 at 1:47am | IP Logged | ||
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I see nothing wrong with either of those sentences. English uses "one" as an indefinite placeholder in many stock phrases, such as:
"Today is going to be a hot one!" (That is, a hot day.) "It's your last roll of the dice. Make it a good one!" (That is, a good roll.) "You're the only one for me." (That is, the only man or woman.) Children are also sometimes called "little one." And, of course, the impersonal: "One cannot live on bread alone." It's just a quirk of the English language. I'm not even sure what part of speech one might call that. :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5561 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 6 of 9 25 July 2012 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | ||
Thank you, searching for "ones" turned up some sites. I still haven't found any rules, so perhaps you are right about that too. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5561 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 7 of 9 25 July 2012 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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mikonai - thank you
Hampie - I didn't quite understand what you mean by "if an adjective alone would not describe it" and thanks for reminding me about the ambiguity of "one" that makes it sometimes used for sexual inuendo. Hertz - I agree also that there are lotr of natural uses of "one". But it's interesting that you instinctively formulated all your quotes as direct speech, because I think its use is definitely more common in the spoken language. As narrative: - It was clear that the day was going to be a hot one. - It was his last roll of the dice, he had to make it a good one! - She was the only one for me. They're certainly not wrong, just a tiny bit of me starts to wonder if it would be better if I rephrased them (your other example is the "impersonal personal" type, that I'm not worried about at the moment). edit: In fact, now I think about it, they sound a bit like phrases out of cheap airport thrillers, or even children's books. Edited by schoenewaelder on 25 July 2012 at 2:58pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 8 of 9 25 July 2012 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hehe "impersonal personal". Impersonal sort of implies a connection with personal pronouns, it's similar to them. It's different from non-personal ie indefinite, and as an impersonal pronoun it certainly has an indefinite meaning as well :D
You may just want to point out that some learners overuse it, possibly due to similar structures in their native language/even simply due to the fact that they translate rather than think in English. Perhaps they've learned that a certain structure is translated using "one". Praise them on being advanced enough that there are very few formal rules left to learn (if any), and explain that to sound more natural they probably need to read more in English and maybe do scriptorium :) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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