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Another dreaded "r" question | ||
Tags: Phonetics | Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4950 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 1 of 15 27 July 2012 at 9:04pm | IP Logged |
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Well, I was shocked today. And it is increasingly difficult to shock me at this point in my languages journey.
So, I just found out that the "R" that was predominant in German before the french "fricative" version became generalized is not the ALVEOLAR trill (like Spanish or Swedish), but rather the uvular version. Now you would think I may have known that already, but I didn't. I just simply read "trill" in prior material about the German language's history and assumed it was the "rr" sound with the tip of the tongue. Lazy reading at its finest. I also let prepossessions take the best of me, since I assumed it had to be the alveolar trill because Swedish "r" is that version, and thus surmised that both languages being cousins shared the same sound. Well, now that my anecdote is out of the way... it is really bothering me. I pride myself in learning the correct sounds of a language, in their correct articulation. I understand how an uvular trill is made, and I actually think I can do it and have done it. The problem is I really can't tell the difference with the fricative or "french r". Actually, I think I can, but am very uncertain whether I'm right: Does the uvular trill sound like a "dry" snore? By that I mean there is no sound of liquid being cleared from between the tongue and the uvula, so that the vibrations sound "clean". If I'm wrong, please I need to know. Secondly, what is the difference with the fricative uvular then? If I am right with the above, then the fricative sounds like you are clearing your throat (meaning there is liquid between the uvula and tongue), right? Now I know the uvular trill is not widely used, but the curiosity is killing me, and I feel the need as a linguistic geek to be able to produce both or at least understand the difference in their sound. In short: is the uvular trill a "dry snore" and the fricative a "clearing of liquid"? Of course any links and sound sources to help me out would be mightily appreciated! ps - No admonishing!! :) Edit: here's the links to both: /ʀ/ uvular trill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uvular_trill /ʁ/ uvular fricative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_uvular_fricative Edited by outcast on 27 July 2012 at 9:08pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5533 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 15 27 July 2012 at 9:33pm | IP Logged |
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There are some nice recordings here:
IPA charts If I understand it correctly, the fricative is caused by air turbulence, and the trill by vibration of the uvula. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4950 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 3 of 15 27 July 2012 at 9:45pm | IP Logged |
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Yes, and I actually have further found out that I'm not capable of making the uvular trill, so I lied when I said above I could do it. My bad.
I think your description is much better, the fricative "r" is made by turbulence (that clearing sound), whereas the uvular sounds like what it is, something that is "ringing". I keep reading it is very hard to make an uvular trill, it seems I have my work cut out for me. So far, it makes the Mandarin affricates look easy (but they were not at all, and still aren't! though I've managed to get them down). 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4522 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 4 of 15 27 July 2012 at 10:57pm | IP Logged |
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the uvular trill is pretty hard
That's how it seems easier to me: press your teeth together really hard and relax everything else, then try the trill. If you have no idea how to move your uvular, it doesn't help though. Another trick would be to speak with lots of energy. If you try the uvular trill and fail, you actually get the uvular fricative. By the way, most Germans can't do the uvular trill either. In fluid speech I can only produce it when I speak with lots of energy, which lets me sound like Hitler. Those with an uvular trill in their native dialect don't sound like that at all though. On the Swedish vs. German R in language history: as far as I know, Proto-Norse had an uvular trill too originally. But the nominative ending for example, which was "-z", became an "-r" eventually, which was an alveolar sound just like "z" (you usually write "-R" when transcribing Scandinavian runes to signal that it was something between [z] and [r] most of the period). I guess the two R-sounds fell together pretty soon to [r]. I'm not sure if the thing about an uvular trill in Proto-Norse was some speculation I read once or if that's a hard fact. Edited by daegga on 27 July 2012 at 11:03pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4950 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 5 of 15 28 July 2012 at 12:00am | IP Logged |
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Cool info there daegga.
Well, I have been gutting away (pun intended!) for the past 2 hours and for the first 90 minutes it was futile. Then in the last 30 minutes or so I started to realize that if I relax my lower jaw/tongue and breathe a bit more forcefully while at the same time lifting the back of my tongue towards the uvula, that I get what I would describe as a pathetic realization of a trill... perhaps I'm being too hard on myself. Indeed, because of the muscle skill, PLUS location accuracy, PLUS breathing control required to produce a clean trill with the uvula, I can see why it is so difficult. I can now see why to so many the alveolar till is also hard, though I suspect it may be a little easier than the uvular, but that is perhaps biased since I can do the "rr" in my sleep. My throat is definitely feeling the effects of my efforts, but I think I have been able to at least pinpoint the general gist of how to get your mouth to be in a position to produce a trill back there. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but the fricative "french r" is realized in the same area as K/G are realized, with the "turbulence" being created by air going through the uvula and thru the narrow opening between the tongue and the back palate. The uvular trill I feel that it is further back in the throat, like right now I can feel my uvula being sore... I think that is a good sign right? Anyway, that is not where I realize my french "r"'s, they are ever so slightly more forward. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5533 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 6 of 15 28 July 2012 at 12:05am | IP Logged |
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Can you make the uvular fricative? If so, try constricting it a bit more and increasing
the air flow. For me it feels the turbulence increases until it starts vibrating the uvula like a boxer's speed bag. If that doesn't work, do you know how you close your throat when you're tipping your head back to gargle? Do that, but open your throat slightly, keeping your muscles tense, and breath out sharply. It's about step further back than the German "ach" sound. Or can you make the "snoring" noise on both inhale and exhale? Anyway, I hope one of these helps. :-) EDIT: Yeah, I feel like I make my French Rs in a very slightly different location, now that I think about it, in order to avoid the trill. You certainly can make a K-like noise at that location, but it's /q/ in IPA, not the /k/ that I use in English. I swear, making some phonemes is like learning learning to play a music instrument, with all the frustration, practice and muscle building that you'd expect. I could always trill my uvula, but I actually had to "de-trill" it in order to find the French R. Edited by emk on 28 July 2012 at 12:13am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Hampie Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6660 days ago 625 posts - 1009 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Latin, German, Mandarin | Message 7 of 15 28 July 2012 at 12:25am | IP Logged |
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Uhm, to shock you even more: the Swedish r isn't really a thrill, but rather a flap. So Swedish and Spanish r are not
the same. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4950 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 8 of 15 28 July 2012 at 12:30am | IP Logged |
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You are right it is /q/ not so much /k/, but yes I can do the fricative uvular or at least I think I can :)
If not, it's a pretty darn good imitation, but I think it is the real thing. I followed your advice of constriction and daegga's advice of "blowing out" harder... there is some effect, but it is not under much control. Of course, more control comes only with practice and strengthening of the areas in question. As for the German "ach", yes I can make it of course, but some say "ach" is further back than "och/uch" (which is basically /x/ as in Spanish J), with some saying "ach" is not /x/ but rather /χ/, the former a velar, and the latter uvular. Of course all that is revelling in details normally, but for you is "ach" /x/ or /χ/? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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