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One thread, two languages (French/German) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4953 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 1 of 7 13 August 2012 at 1:09am | IP Logged | ||
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German:
I've read tons of German but I don't remembering encountering this situation, which stomped me the other day because I was speaking to myself and realized I didn't know how to resolve it correctly. If you have for example this: "Erzähl mal was du gern liest, um dir Empfehlungen zu geben" Is the "um dir" construction correct or incorrect? Or does accusative "um" override the grammatical role of the pronoun (which acts as the indirect object of "geben", "Empfehlungen" being the direct object), thus becoming "dich"? No German source I have read explains this example. French: I've just encountered the locution "due à". It seems to be a higher end construction as thus far I've only seen it in a science entry (wikipedia on Mars), and nowhere else. Am I right or wrong? More importantly, the two examples I read don't make it evident with what is the agreement being made. This is what I mean: "Mars a toujours été caractérisée visuellement par sa couleur rouge, due à l'abondance de l'hématite amorphe — oxyde de fer(III) — à sa surface. "L'obliquité de Mars est actuellement de 25,19° mais, comme celle de la Terre, connaît des variations périodiques dues aux interactions gravitationnelles avec les autres planètes du Système solaire." Is the agreement with the "antecedent" (variations périodiques) or with what follows "due à" (interactions gravitationnelles)? Thank you natives for your help! Edited by outcast on 13 August 2012 at 1:10am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| lichtrausch Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5964 days ago 525 posts - 1072 votes Speaks: English*, German, Japanese Studies: Korean, Mandarin | Message 2 of 7 13 August 2012 at 3:35am | IP Logged | ||
The "um" in that sentence doesn't have any effect on the "dir". Your sentence sounds a little off. I would say something like "Erzähl mal was du gerne liest, damit ich dir etwas empfehlen kann." 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4953 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 3 of 7 13 August 2012 at 3:55am | IP Logged | ||
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Which would explain why I haven't encountered it much. I should use "damit" a lot more often to remplace "um...zu", I just learned um...zu way at the beginning and "damit", or "so dass" not that long ago, so I still tend to rely too much on certain constructions. Though anyway it is good to get that doubt out of the way. Thank you, Lichtrausch.
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| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5302 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 4 of 7 14 August 2012 at 4:57pm | IP Logged | ||
"um ... zu" is only correct in sentences like the following: Hans fährt nach Rom, um den Papst zu sehen. Claudia kauft sich ein neues Kleid, um beim Fest hübsch auszusehen. Hans fährt, und Hans will den Papst sehen; Claudia kauft ein Kleid, und sie (Claudia) will hübsch aussehen. The acting person, subject must be the same in both parts of the sentence. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4848 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 5 of 7 14 August 2012 at 9:10pm | IP Logged | ||
About the German sentence everything has been said, so I'll comment the French one. The agreement is of course with the antecedent. It becomes clearer if you form a question: A quoi est-ce que les varitions sont dues ? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5564 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 6 of 7 16 August 2012 at 2:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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"um ...zu" is here a conjunction (not a preposition) and never has any impact on any cases in the clause that follows. Edited by schoenewaelder on 16 August 2012 at 2:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4953 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 7 of 7 16 August 2012 at 7:14pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yeah, that is what I thought, but there is a source that said anything after "um" is acccusative, so that threw me off a little. In reality they are correct, since as pointed out "um...zu" is used with the subject in both parts of a sentence being the same, and otherwise use "damit".
Josquin: I see that now thanks. I also was thrown off here and now I know why: I took "dues aux" as one concept, meaning they both agreed either with the antecedent or what followed. In reality, it is both! "du" agrees wit the antecedent, but "à" does NOT participate in that, it merely contracts according to what follows!! That is what had me all confused. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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