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Boris Johnson on Mandarin | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| languagenerd09 Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom youtube.com/user/Lan Joined 5100 days ago 174 posts - 267 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Thai | Message 25 of 57 17 October 2013 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | ||
My dad owns a company and I do have to say the most foreign business the company gets comes from either the Netherlands or Norway. Granted some companies go further but I personally don't find it that bewildering to learn Chinese characters, if I had the physical time to do it, I would sit and just learn to read Chinese script. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4707 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 26 of 57 17 October 2013 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | ||
Education is just undervalued and that is the whole problem. Furthermore, many things are taught in such a way that is just not relevant to anyone today. I did well in pretty much everything in high school (apart from the last two years or so because I was a lazy dunce) but even though I have never been particularly inspired by what we did in French or German I am the only one out of a whole class probably (those who went abroad to Germany excepted, a few did that) who actually speaks German and isn't bothered by it, nor am I bothered by speaking French. Most of my classmates couldn't give a crap and have forgotten all of their education in French and German and simply do not use it anymore? Why? Because it isn't relevant to them. Most people with the advent of the net have access to everything in either Dutch or English. There is no incentive to speak French or German because we don't actually encounter it in our daily lives except if we do business with them. People just go on all-inclusive holidays where they're spoken to in either English or Dutch. Because English is popular here and we get less Dutch material English is common but that's about it. Sime people tourist Germany for skiing or go camping in France and remember their tourist French and German they learned at school. Similarly, how often do people work out differential equations by hand? Nobody, except a bunch of engineers who learn it at university and if they go into engineering and model problems then they'll soon just program everything in MATLAB or whatever material they're using because it is a shitload faster than what you can do by hand. I can solve a simple differential equation by hand but if I have to remember integration by parts then I will have to really read back up on it because it's not a skill I use ever. What needs to happen is sink-or-swim situations where it's either "you learn what the hell you're taught or else you fail". Motivation exists in two situations: one where the pupil is motivated to do whatever they want to do because they're internally driven (these people exist but they're rare) and a whole host of people who just don't give a dingo's kidney. How do you make them do something? By forcing them into a situation where they have to give a dingo's kidney about a skill because they can't actually move forward without it. Similarly, it's good to have material that interests students but this only works for students in high schools who have the capacity to think about this themselves, not for primary school kids who just need to be taught and policed to sit still and do whatever they should be doing. It is bullshit that you can't drill tables and spelling rules into kids - it's the only way to do it in fact because goddamn they are children and they don't actually think about everything cognitively yet - so for shit's sake AUTOMATISE speech, calculation, and so on. Not being able to handwrite fast, spell Dutch or English, or do mental addition and subtraction isn't a sign of a child being stupid, it's a sign of you not putting in the time to teach it properly and give the kid the hours it needs to automatise these things properly. I remember a long time ago I had a discussion somewhere about long division. One person was saying that he would never use long division anyway because he was well shit at maths and the other person was saying "that is a part of education". And it is. It should be taught in primary school and rammed into your brain when you are a kid so you have some basic skills that you do not bloody forget when you are 20, 30, or 60. Giving children interesting material works when they are 15 but when you are a child you have to learn to sit still, behave, and learn some work ethic. Primary school is for teaching everyone everything basic that everyone needs to know in their sleep, dream it and so that they can explain it without thought to a second person. Once children start to cognitively develop hobbies and interests you pursue interesting material and you personalise it. You still have a general knowledge base to attend to but the children can think cognitively about it now. Now it becomes relevant to give children suitable material that they can conceivably use in practical situations in their future lives and workplaces. So for foreign languages, children need to be in situations where they are constantly reminded that learning Korean, French, or Navajo has relevance to their daily life now, today, everyday. Otherwise you might as well not. Edited by tarvos on 17 October 2013 at 3:30pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Via Diva Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation last.fm/user/viadivaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4234 days ago 1109 posts - 1427 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German, Italian, French, Swedish, Esperanto, Czech, Greek | Message 27 of 57 17 October 2013 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm truly glad that I've already finished the school. Once I graduated (let's call it like that, hehe) kids got a lesson about religions, so called "Основы православной культуры" (The basics of orthodox culture). I'm an atheist, and it's not quite comfortable for me to act that way. Our Russian/ Literature / World's art culture teacher is a believer, and I sometimes ended up in truly uncomfortable situations because of that differences in our life positions. Well, she is a professional, and my 4/5 is well-deserved, I shall not get 5/5 anyway, but the memory about this situations is more likely to remain as something sad for me.
If I was to learn Mandarin at school, I would've gone mad. China is not at all away from my hometown, but even this fact doesn't inspires me to learn Mandarin. I just don't like how the language sounds! That's enough for everyone to run away, but this is also a complex language with absolutely different basis, alphabet and whatever else hard there is. Our country was exposed to French for a long time, and it was mostly about high society, some people had problems, some were alright. There was no questions - it is required, so go and learn how to conjugate these group of verbs, lazy heir of a huge amount of earth! Now it's the same with English. I think that with some time all complaints and loud words will vanish and people will just learn the language as it asked. And this process began not yesterday! There are no strict result, but the situation slowly gets better. To imagine that English would be switched for Mandarin is just impossible even for my rich imagination. However, one can not make kids study three languages at once (including native one). Plus, Chinese in any form is just scary for the most of kids here. I remember how we were looking at Latin alphabet in third grade - so new, so distant, so vague... But if one need to really teach kid Chinese, he had to begin even earlier. And for what? These intentions from Great Britain sounds like "Ok, ok, I give up". Why the hell?! We should get something easy and rich at once. English is not the easiest language in the world, but it is rich and simple for a lot of people. You will tell me that there is too much Chinese to argue about their language. No way! Indo-European languages lead in the whole word, and we shouldn't give up. I know that this sounds pathetic, but it is as it is. While French keeps being French and losing big money just because of their spelling system, English is just tends to become a disaster. Literally. Another reason "why we're in Russia should not bother about Mandarin" is the Russian language itself. It's complex. And there's simply no day when I do not see at least three spelling mistakes in written Russian. You'll say that it could be just an intention, but it is not. It's a real mistake, which later will become a rule. English just moves in the same direction, and this is a scary perspective. Now imagine that the source of English will be filled with lots of Chinese words. Don't forget to mention their followers. I'm afraid to think about how they'll know their native language! So, my reaction to these news: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" Yes, not "нет", but "no". Another scary thing about languages study in early age. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4707 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 28 of 57 17 October 2013 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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I studied four languages at school. Like all Dutch kids do.
We still live. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Via Diva Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation last.fm/user/viadivaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4234 days ago 1109 posts - 1427 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German, Italian, French, Swedish, Esperanto, Czech, Greek | Message 29 of 57 17 October 2013 at 6:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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Oh, I should've mentioned the type of languages. Everyone studies their native plus English - two. In case of, for example, Dutch / Ukrainian as a native one it's highly recommended to study close and more widely used German / Russian. And, considering that Europe cares about how their citizens can understand each other, one language just adds up. Not the Ukrainian situation, as I think, our countries is not integrated yet.
My point was that to teach ALL the kids simultaneously three languages with huge differences is awful unless the kids themselves ask to teach them. Just to imagine that one child is to study Russian, English and Mandarin with native Russian... well, for me it seems just a horrible perspective. But if Mandarin would become that important, no one would even think about asking a kid. No one asked us if we want to threw our university's education system away. They just did. And I honestly do not think that this is the right method of actions. Subjective I prefer English natives to stay monolingual than to gave an additional rise to Mandarin. And I should not forget to put that in the end of every post I write: IMHO. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| I'm With Stupid Senior Member Vietnam Joined 4173 days ago 165 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Vietnamese | Message 30 of 57 17 October 2013 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | ||
How do they find the time to teach them effectively though? All kids in English schools usually learn 3 languages (including English). Just not very well. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4707 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 31 of 57 17 October 2013 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | ||
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They make time for it. Just like you make time for everything else. Usually French is
compulsory for three years, German for two. Beyond that you usually have to make a choice, but it depends on the school system you're in because I think nowadays havo and vmbo allow you to drop both (havo used to have a 3rd being compulsory until final exams), but that also depends on your other subjects (i.e. people who do sciences can drop languages in HAVO. Not in VWO though). It depends on when you came through the school system. For example I studied Dutch and English consistently (you can never drop English). I studied German and French for four years each. People who completed the new system would probably have Dutch, English, and 5 years of German usually (or six years of French, with the other dropped after 3 resp. 2 years). A tier lower they would have 3/2, and if they choose to continue with either until their exam then 5/4 (French is introduced earlier). In vmbo I don't know, it's going to be less, but I think German is max 3 and French is max 4. And some tiers of vmbo even lower down don't offer French because they go straight into vocational education and then you only get German I think. And in the very lowest tiers of education I am not sure what they teach pupils at all. However university-trained students have studied 4 languages out of which English is a min. B2 and I think the third is theoretically min. B1-B2, (although in practice it turns out less). http://www.erk.nl/leerling/erkenvwo/ (link in Dutch). Here you can find what the language skills are supposed to be for students for their final exams in English, French, German, and Spanish. These are the central exams for students who go to university. For lower tiers, click the havo or vmbo on the right. VMBO has three subdivisions. Edited by tarvos on 17 October 2013 at 9:01pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5832 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 32 of 57 17 October 2013 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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The whole question of teaching Mandarin in British schools is rather academic (no pun intended) as there are simply not enough teachers with a knowledge of the language to be able to teach it widely. French has traditionally been the most widely studied foreign language. So those who decide to pursue languages to a higher level tend to continue with French, and maybe pick up another one on the way, thus leading to a situation where most MFL teachers are qualified to teach French, and if you're lucky Spanish or German as well. All primary schools pupils in England now have an entitlement to a foreign language, which in effect means primary schools are encouraged to have a MFL on the curriculum but aren't obligated. It generally depends on whether there is a teacher at the school who has a sufficient level of knowledge and confidence to teach it. (There will very rarely be anyone fluent in the language on the staff). There is no consistency in the language or number of hours a primary school pupil will have had, meaning that when they arrive at secondary school the MFL teacher has to presume pupils know nothing and start from scratch. (Often at primary level pupils will have 30-60 mins a week, sometimes less regularly than that) Most MFL teachers at secondary level will have a degree in the foreign language and be fairly fluent, but it is quite common for them to be asked to teach a language of which they only know the basics. (Indeed a teacher can be asked to teach any subject, whether qualified or not, depending on the needs and staffing of the particular school.) Finally I don't see why some members on this forum think that students should be 'fluent' after studying a language at school. In England, a pupil who does French for 5 years, will roughly have done 350 hours of class study. This is half the hours that FSI students will have spent on a category one language. And most school kids do not have the experience, motivation and immersion environment that the FSI students presumably have.
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