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Boris Johnson on Mandarin | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4622 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 41 of 57 18 October 2013 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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A common complaint among monolingual Brits is that their language lessons at school were very boring. That
rather conveniently shifts the blame on to the teacher and education system.....if only the language had been taught in a "fun" way then perhaps we would all effortlessly converse in French or German. But you can't reach even a solid conversational level in a language without putting in the work. It's easy to take pot-shots at teachers but the pupil also has a responsibility to engage with the learning process. It's a two-way thing. You can't become a good guitar player unless you are prepared to go through hours of repetition. Is that fun? Or you could just dumb it down by going for the bells-and-whistles option of playing Guitar Hero on your Playstation. But does it actually get you anywhere? People in the UK don't throw themselves into language learning because they know they can pursue almost any career using only English. But maybe one day a knowledge of Mandarin will bring obvious benefits. People are very adaptable. It's common in Western Europe for peope to speak English well, but that only really happened over the last 20 to 50 years. Edited by beano on 18 October 2013 at 12:58pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4622 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 42 of 57 18 October 2013 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | ||
I wouldn't expect a young person to be fluent in a language if their only real contact with that language was learning it at school. You are correct when you point out that "5 years" of school French boils down to a far lesser amount. Some kids couldn't care less about foreign languages and only do the subject because they have no choice in the matter. They will happily forget everything upon leaving. But for the young people who actively choose to study a language, I think they should be able to build sentences using common verbs in a variety of tenses, as well as employing a wide range of everyday vocabulary and adjectives. Sadly, this is not usually the case in the UK. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think part of the problem is that pupils are taught to remember useful phrases that will help them pass an exam whereas in my opinion it would be better to teach sentence construction from scratch. There is also far too little emphasis on speaking, a typical lesson would see a class doing a reading exercise with a text that is way beyond their level. They are handed a dictionary and told to get on with it. Written questions are given in English and are answered in English. Sure, there is a speaking element to the course which accounts for around a quarter of the final grade. But in reality the pupils are coached with a handful of model answers to the stock questions. The kids merely regurgitate from memory rather than build sentences themselves. Maybe this is why I regard Michel Thomas as the master. I did "4 years" of school German and could barely communicate at the end of it (yet I enjoyed the subject and liked my teacher). When I first heard the Michel Thomas method as an adult, I got straight into it and instantly felt like I was getting somewhere. It may sound as if I'm having a dig at school language teachers but that is not my intention. I appreciate it must be hard to impart your knowledge on a group of youngsters who have already dismissed the notion that it will be useful to them one day, doubly so in English speaking countries where people know that you can go abroad and not need to use the local language. Teachers have to work with the humans that are in front of them and all the pre-conceived ideas that entails. I bet even the most enthusiastic practitioners have some of the passion knocked out of them after several years at the coal face. The authorities make all the right noises about languages being important in an increasingly globalised and mobile world. But ultimately it's always going to be an uphill struggle, wherever you stand. Edited by beano on 18 October 2013 at 3:51pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5832 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 43 of 57 18 October 2013 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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You are absolutely right about the way teaching is focused on coaching the kids to pass an exam. The reason for this is that there is an obsession in the British education system with targets. Every pupil has a target grade that they must achieve in their GCSE exams. A teacher has to justify why their pupils failed to achieve the target grade and how they will ensure their pupils will achieve them in future. Schools are ranked in league tables according to exam results. Ofsted inspectors are called in if results suddenly take a dip. All in the name of 'raising standards'. Real teaching and learning has taken a back seat to this target culture. Edited by stelingo on 18 October 2013 at 7:01pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| I'm With Stupid Senior Member Vietnam Joined 4173 days ago 165 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Vietnamese | Message 44 of 57 18 October 2013 at 9:23pm | IP Logged | ||
It's more a question of how many hours do you spend on it a week? How long does it take to teach kids a language effectively? If we assume that 25 hours a week is spent on lessons, how many of those hours are spent on each language? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| I'm With Stupid Senior Member Vietnam Joined 4173 days ago 165 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Vietnamese | Message 45 of 57 18 October 2013 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | ||
I don't think they should be fluent, but I'd expect them to be better than beginner level after 5 years. The foundation paper in GCSE French is A1 level and the higher paper is A2 level. Just thinking back to my own French classes not a ridiculously long time ago (95-00), I barely remember even speaking in class. And to be fair, it's hardly set up for the teachers. An hour or two a week is hardly fair. 4x30 minutes might actually be more effective. In fact, if anyone is interested in a challenge, I'd be interested to see how quickly someone can self study their way to a good grade on a GCSE paper and how many hours a day of study it takes. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| languagenerd09 Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom youtube.com/user/Lan Joined 5100 days ago 174 posts - 267 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Thai | Message 46 of 57 20 October 2013 at 3:24am | IP Logged | ||
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I finished my GCSEs in 2007 and opted into A-Level Spanish.
For A-Level Spanish I had 5x 1 hour lessons a week plus 1 hour speaking with a native Peruvian teacher (so in theory 6 hours a week) in comparison to my 3 hours a week for GCSE (3x 1 hour lessons). My teacher for A-Level never spoke English in class at all. Edited by languagenerd09 on 20 October 2013 at 3:25am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4444 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 47 of 57 24 October 2013 at 7:51am | IP Logged | ||
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Many of us being adults are debating how best kids should be "taught" a difficult language such as Mandarin or
Japanese. Many of us grew up with English as our mother-tongue. We didn't go to school for the first 3-4 years to attend class or write exams. We simply listen to words being spoken by relatives and friends and try to form sentences before learning any structured grammar rules. Part of learning is to immerse yourself in actual conversations and engage in any media like TV programs, radio discussions that simulate actual dialog between individuals. Doesn't have to be boring although time consuming. Getting access to foreign programming isn't difficult. Some people have satellite dishes and a majority have access to the Internet already. I know a few people who watch Chinese shows from China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc. using Tudou online. Keeping up with my Chinese doesn't require that I go to school and attend classes X number of hours a day. Every week I would allow certain amount of time for news and a few TV shows in English and Mandarin, Cantonese or whatever. When I was in school, many people have gone through many hours of weekly lessons in French. Out of the whole class less than 10% of the students were actually comfortable speaking and using French outside the classroom. At 1 time we assumed some people naturally have no ability to pick up other languages. This is becoming less of an issue than the approach you use. I agree with a lot of people who say going through test and exams in class you get too many standardized answers. Like in French one would always give the standard greeting: "Bonjour, comment ça va?" and reply: "Ça va bien, et vous?" the Chinese would say: "你好嗎 (nǐhǎoma)"? and reply: "好謝謝, 你 呢 (hǎoxièxie, nǐne)"? The debate is about whether or not we should introduce Chinese in schools as part of the curriculum I'd say only if the classes involve some sort of fun and games and actual communications in an immersion format. I pick up more Chinese 4-character phrases 成語 (chéngyǔ) watching Chinese drama series in 3 months than actually attending Mandarin classes for 1 single year. Might as well allow local programs to be broadcasted in Mandarin like in Canada we have TV stations Omni1 & Omni2, Fairchild & Chin Radio broadcasts in different languages throughout the day. Edited by shk00design on 24 October 2013 at 8:00am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4668 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 48 of 57 24 October 2013 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well, not everyone is interested in Chinese dramas/soaps,
Chinese don't have the anime industry of Japan, or Bollywood industry of India. They need to make something unique if they want to promote their language globally. Edited by Medulin on 24 October 2013 at 2:39pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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