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Torbyrne - British polyglot on YouTube | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6693 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 73 of 80 29 December 2012 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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To Bismuth: you are welcome to think that it is a step forward that English has become a lingua franca which almost everybody can use for international comunications. But your attack on Torbyrne is unwarranted and out of proportions. Torbyrne has the right to point out that communication possibilities in other languages are being lost because English always is there as an easy alternative, and he has the right to feel that it is worth 'encouraging' people to learn other languages on top of English. He doesn't have any obligation to promote English every time he makes a video. Quite frankly English as today's lingua franca is not in danger, and if you think there are too few videos which support the already massive propagation of English then you are welcome to make them yourself. You can't expect Torbyrne to make them for you.
You claim that "people either love languages or don't give any shit at all about them. If you ever convince somebody to learn languages, then please let me know, I will be very interessted.". You don't supply any empirical justification for this statement, but the effect of scoffing at any attempt to promote language learning in general (i.e. beyond English) may make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. How can people develop an interest in learning languages if nobody tells you that it is possible and worthwhile? And seeing someone with Torbyrne's skills should by any normal logic have the same effect as seeing good sportsmen in action - some are left indifferent, and some are inspired to have a go themselves. But your negative attitude can only help those who really believe that English is enough. Besides the prospects for learners of other languages are not totally rosy. We have got the internet, cheap travel opportunities and there are still instruction in several languages in our schools - but the movement towards English is so strong that the easy choice is to stick with English and your native language, if that isn't English too. And that's impoverishment. Edited by Iversen on 29 December 2012 at 4:44pm 9 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bismuth Triglot Newbie Germany Joined 4341 days ago 30 posts - 46 votes Speaks: German*, English, Russian Studies: Icelandic, Spanish | Message 74 of 80 29 December 2012 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The what ? I subscribed to Torbyrne and enjoy his videos. My so called 'attack' is called 'discussion'. He made a video I disagree with and I want to hear counter arguments which prove me wrong, either from Torbyrne or the people, who agree with him. In no word I've ever attacked him. You better read more carefully before posting. People, who are not interessted in a proper argument, shouldn't strike up, just because they feel like destroying this discussion. The fact that Chung, who is a well recognized poster himself, fully agrees with me encourages me that there are still some people who are interessted in this controversial discussion, so please leave, if you are not interessted in having this. EDIT: I think my last questions to Torbyrne were clearly good enough to lead this discussion in a proper way. I just can't let it be, when people who have so many experience and knowledge about this topic just drop their controversial opinion without at least giving good and clear arguements, which show me for what reason he thinks as he thinks. When you do such statements, you are obligated to explain them, otherwise those statements will become worthless. Edited by Bismuth on 29 December 2012 at 5:49pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7146 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 75 of 80 29 December 2012 at 6:49pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I'll say in Torbyrne's defense that there's nothing wrong in encouraging others to learn languages and the marginal cost to do so is small. The body of potential learners of a language is larger than it may appear. Of course it's out of his hands if some don't go along with his encouragement, and that's fine. I gather that he's not one to take such reaction so seriously to the point of embarking on some crusade for multilingualism at the expense of his existing job or his efforts to teach himself more languages.
For some time now I've been big on lesser known Slavonic and Uralic languages (Slovak and Saamic ones especially) but I'm one of those who prefer to lead (sometimes unwittingly) by example (if one can call it that) and post my progress as I study them. If someone gets sufficiently encouraged to learn languages (especially these "useless" ones that I like) based on what I find or point out in my log postings, that's great. If not, it's still no skin off my ass since I've wanted to study these languages all along. At some points I've noted inwardly on how few outsiders care or want to learn languages that fascinate me, but I let this sensation get overriden by my belief that people should learn something (not just a foreign language) that interests them, barring professional or contractual reasons. I guess that what may make Torbyrne's points potentially controversial is their being interpretable as another native speaker of English bemoaning the ubiquitousness of English in a quasi politically correct vein. However he's not the first person to bemoan it, and those threads that I brought up earlier show that the thinking can be found to varying degrees in non-native and native speakers of English, many of whom are nowhere near as accomplished as he is. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| portunhol Triglot Senior Member United States thelinguistblogger.w Joined 6242 days ago 198 posts - 299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: German, Arabic (classical) | Message 76 of 80 29 December 2012 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I think Torbyrne's video is great. I never inferred that he was telling anyone not to learn English. Learning the language of your neighbor is a great idea and makes sense. A German who lives and works in France may get by with English at work with some people but is more likely to get along with her colleagues, and boss, much better if she is fluent in French. She is more likely to get along with her neighbors and make friends faster if she knows French. Conversely, many articles have been written (google it, you'll find many examples) about Spaniards losing out on work opportunities in Germany, in part, because they don't know German, not English.
I had a Cambodian coworker whose father would speak Thai to him as a little boy. Now living in the States, this man met and married a Thai woman and they have a happy life together. This would not have happened if he only know English and Cambodian. His sister escaped to Thailand during the Khmer Rouge and her life was made much easier because she spoke fluent Thai. As a Californian, my life has been greatly enriched since I became fluent in Spanish, the language of my neighbor. I have had many work opportunities that would not have been available to me if I did not know Spanish. Some of my best friends now are from Central and South America and we all speak in Spanish. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Lapislazuli Tetraglot Senior Member Austria Joined 7026 days ago 146 posts - 170 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, ItalianB1 Studies: French, Hungarian, Esperanto, Czech | Message 77 of 80 29 December 2012 at 7:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@Bismuth: I find this an interesting topic for discussion and I am glad you have taken it up. What might have probably lead to people not understanding your friendly intention, might have been your tone. When writing on a forum it can be advisable to check a few times how something could come across, especially when introducing a controversy. People who are reading this cannot see my face or hear the tone of my voice, so I would rather like to double check to make sure my words are understood in the way I intended to.
My reason for posting here is that I am someone who strongly advocates learning the languages of your neighbour countries, or those languages that practically lie right in front of your nose. I cannot talk for Torbyrne here and I don’t want to interpret things he could have meant into his message, I think he can do so himself, and has already done so. But I never understood his videos to be addressed to everyone out there, but to interested language learners. They are his main target group after all, I don’t think people who don’t want to learn a language would watch his videos anyway. So he certainly did not say everyone should do this or that, but rather stated his personal opinion that he would find it great, if more people learned the languages of their neighbours. No complaint about them not doing so, but an encouragement. (That is how I understood it.) And I fully agree with him on that and I really appreciated hearing him speak about it. Now I am not going to write about what he said, but about what I think: I still find it important to learn English, it is a language that enables communication with lots of people. I am still trying to improve my English as it is a language that I am using a lot in my job and in my everyday life, so I also want to speak and write it well. But I think English is not a substitute for learning the language of a country that you are interested in. Even though the people there might also speak it, but I have not yet come to a place where everyone’s English (as a second language) is perfect or even conversational. People are much more comfortable if you talk to them in their native language. And even those who know English will appreciate the effort of a foreigner to study their language. And then communication with people will take place on a whole different level as when you have to make use of a third language (English). I have experienced this with most of my languages, but especially with Hungarian. I used to be in Hungary quite often, also before I started studying the language. Then I spoke to people in English or German, which worked out fine most of the time. I could communicate. But people started opening up to me, when I started speaking to them in Hungarian. I had conversations that I would have never had, if I had only spoken English, I was able to watch movies, read books, see theatre performances that I would not have been able to appreciate otherwise. AND most important of all I made friends that I would not have gotten to know otherwise. This goes for any language of course, but it can be an especially valuable experience, when you get to know the language of your neighbours. At least for me it is. There is the practical advantage of available material, especially when you don’t live too far from the border, it’s easier to go there to just practice the languages or buy some books, newspapers or other materials. And then it also broadens your cultural horizon. You will be able to discover all the cultural aspects that link you to your neighbours. There is often, if not always a common history with your neighbours, and in Germany that situation is not much different then here in Austria. It would just be too easy to say that a country ends at one place where someone at some point in history decided to draw a line and make it the border. I am personally very interested in history, so that is some more reason for me to learn the language of my neighbours. I am also interested in literature and movies, and we all know that the English speaking world somehow seems culturally here. Look at the books published by German publishing houses. (It doesn’t even look good for German writers unless they are famous and popular already, but this is a completely different topic) Lots of movies I am watching, books I am reading have never been translated to German or English, so I would not be able to enjoy them, if I did not know the language. But you might say there are enough books to read in English for thousands of lifetimes, which is true, but it’s always nice to have a choice. I think I could go on and on like this until tomorrow, but I hope you get my point. Try it. The experience of talking to your neighbours in your native language is beyond comparison. It will open a whole new level of communication and open up a new world for you that just would not open if you only spoke English to them. That is one of the most rewarding aspects of language learning for me. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Torbyrne Super Polyglot Senior Member Macedonia SpeakingFluently.com Joined 6085 days ago 126 posts - 721 votes Speaks: French, English*, German, Spanish, Dutch, Macedonian, Portuguese, Italian, Swedish, Czech, Catalan, Welsh, Serbo-Croatian Studies: Sign Language, Toki Pona, Albanian, Polish, Bulgarian, TurkishA1, Esperanto, Romanian, Danish, Mandarin, Icelandic, Modern Hebrew, Greek, Latvian, Estonian | Message 78 of 80 29 December 2012 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
OK, I'll bite. I am going to attempt to answer your questions below, though I have to say in the beginning that you appear to have taken things out of context again and made some leaps of logic that I cannot follow. Where I can I will add (back) that in too. :)
Yes. In addition to my own observations living in European countries where this has happened, there are studies showing the trend. Here is one source for you to consider, showing figures from recent years.
This was the aswer to the following question you asked me:
I will try to be clearer. No, you don't understand me correctly. I never said that. I am bringing my daughter up to speak English too precisely because I do recognise the HUGE advantage it gives an individual in life for communication. This discussion about the value of English as a lingua franca was never a point I raised. There is therefore little I can do to backup a point I never made in the first place.
Really? Please show me the evidence for this statement. My source (above) shows that the opposite is true, as I wrote on this thread before and stated in my video.
If you think it is pointless, that's OK. I disagree of course, but I have no need to convince you otherwise. I can say that have helped encourage a number of people take up language learning though and they have been pleased to have done so. No one has ever come back to me to say, "I wish you never spoke positively and encouraged me to learn a language, it was a huge mistake". Of course, if people don't want to learn, they won't...but like many things in life, there are people who are neutral or feel isolated/unsure of how to proceed and they simply need a little encouragement.
Again, this is not what I said. I said
You don't need to understand or agree with my desire to safeguard linguistic diversity and multilingualism, you can simply disagree. That's fine for you to do. Just be sure you don't misrepresent me (or anyone else) as you have done a lot in this thread. It is not fair to do that to either party as you expect me to defend points I have not made and you build strawman arguments based on your misunderstanding of my points, which hamper your own understanding of the discussion itself. I agree that English is a useful tool for communication, as I have said above. I am simply saying that learning our neighbour's language can enhance that experience further. A recent example from my own life...I could live in Skopje without learning any of the languages spoken here (the general standard of English here is pretty high), but I did because I like the response I get from people by doing it and I love languages. One day I came across a child crying and no one else knew Albanian where we were and the child did not speak English. Hearing some comforting words in her own language made a difference, so I could say that we were looking for her mum to come for her. I have 100s of similar stories involving a range of people where knowing the neighbour's language gave a great sense of fulfillment. It can be a great tool to promote mutual respect, understanding and build a sense of community across linguistic borders. A lingua france like English can do this too, but even a basic knowledge of your neighbour's language can evoke a deeper emotional response worth more than the effort involved in learning the words and grammar. :) You may not have experienced this, I don't know...all I can say is that it's a wonderful experience and it drives me to learn more and more.
That's one more example of the jumps in logic you have made throughout this thread. Please try to stick to things I have actually said, if you truly wish for a meaningful discussion. You clearly do not know me, so please don't make assumptions about me based on a few language videos on YouTube. Also, this final comment would have possibly been what other members on the forum consider to be rude as it is not factually accurate and is rather presumptuous. 11 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bismuth Triglot Newbie Germany Joined 4341 days ago 30 posts - 46 votes Speaks: German*, English, Russian Studies: Icelandic, Spanish | Message 79 of 80 29 December 2012 at 9:10pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Did you actually look at your source ? It doesn't compare language skills these days with those from the past at all.. assuming 2005 is not what you meant with 'the past'. The conclusion of your very own statistic claims: "Over half of Europeans (54%) can hold a conversation in at least one other language - A quarter can speak at least two other languages" If that source is meant to support your point that more languages were learned in the past, I must ask: Can you prove that the numbers of foreign language speakers were higher than they are now (as proven as in your source) ? Second question would be: Even if you can prove this, is it significant enough to be mentioned ? Further I must say you made your point much clearer than you did in your video. Your intention of encouraging other people to learn the language of their neighbors seems noble, but in the end it's mere dreaming. When I was in Oulu, Finland I couchsurfed a finish girls place.. her roommate didn't speak even one word of English.. obviously not a word of any other language except finish.. when I asked the girl who offered me a couch why she don't learn at least one other language, she said that she just can't be bothered with it. And as I already said earlier: I have countless of people in my year who are almost just like that. I think those people are a significant part of society and I honestly believe even you can't convince them to sit down and learn a language. Those people who are open for encouragement are already willing to learn languages.. and I personaly don't think you will encourage anybody while also saying it's disturbing to see foreigners use English in order to have conversation.. that was a pretty improper sentence you dropped there. That's what sounded rude, if you ask me, but that's just my two cents. It's offensive towards all those people who benefit from intercultural exchange while using English as a common language. Simply saying: "Why you just not learn 3 or 4 other languages ?", has very boastful tone in it. I must say I'm disappointed that you are even wondering that people might react the way I do after you as an English native say that it's disturbing to see people use English during conversation. If you don't see the conflict you are raising with this video, I don't know what else I might can say to explain it to. EDIT: when you seriously think my tone is presumptuous or rude, be sure that I am absolutely not a rude or presumptuous person. I'm critical and I think my tone is appropriate to get my point accros in a serious discusion I want to bring up here. There should be room left in forums for some serious discussion. I've never been insulting or conceited, so please don't push me in that corner. Edited by Bismuth on 29 December 2012 at 9:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 newyorkeric Diglot Moderator Singapore Joined 6369 days ago 1598 posts - 2174 votes Speaks: English*, Italian Studies: Mandarin, Malay Personal Language Map | Message 80 of 80 30 December 2012 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Without trying to assess blame, I'd just like to say I think it's better for everyone to drop the back and forth. If anyone would like to continue on the particular points put forth in the past couple of pages, please do it by PM.
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