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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Jinx Triglot Senior Member Germany reverbnation.co Joined 5694 days ago 1085 posts - 1879 votes  Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Catalan, Dutch, Esperanto, Croatian, Serbian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish, Yiddish | Message 9 of 14 25 December 2011 at 12:59am | IP Logged |
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"Doch" isn't quite that simple, actually... it has two uses. One is as a "yes" answer to a negative question, the equivalent of the French "si", and the other usage is the "flavoring particle" thing. For example, someone might say "Mach's doch schon!" which to me communicates the feeling of "Do it already!" with some annoyance.
I think it could also be used in the sense of "Well, it's obvious, isn't it?" such as in a sentence "Der ist doch schon hier" (But he's already here, isn't he). Sometimes it's almost like the equivalent of the extraordinarily useful British word "innit", too. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| LebensForm Senior Member Austria Joined 5051 days ago 212 posts - 264 votes Studies: German | Message 10 of 14 26 December 2011 at 6:00am | IP Logged |
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Thanks all, for your imput. Doch is definitely góing to take time to master...I read somewhere that it is kind of like in English, when people say "you know" a lot, but less annoying. Is there any weight to this? I don't know if that necessarily means, that Doch can have that implied "you know" meaning or rather, that it is just used frequently in everyday speech.
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| Davy Putnam Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4839 days ago 5 posts - 37 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Studies: German, Ancient Greek | Message 11 of 14 04 May 2012 at 1:23am | IP Logged |
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It's true that "doch" has a few different shades of meaning, but one way that helps me to think about it is as
merely a strong form of "aber." Consider an English sentence like "John is American, but he is intelligent." In that sentence, there is a presupposition on the part of the speaker that Americans are not intelligent. (I'm not saying that's true, I've just seen this sentence used as an example for this before and I think it works well). So since John is intelligent, that goes against the speaker's presupposition, and the sense of "but" reflects that. If you have ever seen the movie Das Leben der Anderen, there is a good use of doch that I noticed. At the beginning of the film, a Stasi officer is explaining the use of sleep deprivation as an interrogation technique to a class of students. One of the students says "Das ist doch . . . unmenschlich." So an English translation would be something like "But that's . . . inhuman." Basically you could interpret it as the presupposition of the Stasi officer is that it is acceptable to be cruel to suspects, and the student disagrees with this, so he uses "doch." You'll often hear Germans say similar things but with aber instead of doch. So I think in such cases "doch" is roughly equivalent to "aber." I'm no native speaker, so that is as far as I will attempt to explain German modal particles. As for a good grammar book, I cannot recommend Hammer's German Grammar highly enough. It covers just about everything, and explains things clearly and concisely. Also, it has a section on modal particles, which I believe is very good. I once read something in a book that was like "Du wirst schon sehen!" and, curious as to what the modal meaning of "schon" in that sentence was, I looked it up in Hammer's, and it said that one of the meanings of "schon" is to intensify sentences in the future tense, which corresponded perfectly with the sentence. It's also worth noting that modal particles are not the types of things that can simply be defined, as opposed to a noun like "Wasser." Of course you can get the gist of them and maybe even remember a few specific uses or phrases with them, but ultimately I think it just takes time and hearing them used frequently enough to get the sense for where they belong and what meaning they are adding to the sentence. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| druckfehler Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4869 days ago 1181 posts - 1912 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Korean Studies: Persian | Message 12 of 14 04 May 2012 at 6:43pm | IP Logged |
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I know it can be used for making commands sound nicer. This could be wrong but it came to mind first, "Gehen Sie doch weg," go away, but rather please go away kind of thing.
Actually, that sentence would be very rude. The "doch" makes the command more insulting. It's a bit like, "I made it clear that you should go away but it seems like I have to spell it out for you"). If you want to make a fairly polite command, use "bitte". Although commands are rarely polite. You can rephrase a command as a question "Kannst/Könntest du bitte den Brief schreiben?" Or as a suggestion (which indeed sounds nicer if you use "doch"): "Du kannst/könntest doch den Brief schreiben." (this would be a new suggestion, something that hasn't been discussed before) Davy's example is spot on. "Doch" is used in a sentences that oppose a statement that went before: "Martin verspätet sich wieder." - "Er ist doch schon hier!" In sentences that oppose something that is implied: "Ich bin doch auch nur ein Mensch!" (means "I'm only human.", implies that someone's expectations are unrealistic and over the top) It can also signal disapproval: "Das darf doch nicht wahr sein!" ("You can't be serious!", "This can't be happening!") Or a change of opinion/plan: "Ich komme morgen doch." ("I'll come tomorrow after all.") So basically, "doch" can be used to oppose something that went before. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| LebensForm Senior Member Austria Joined 5051 days ago 212 posts - 264 votes Studies: German | Message 13 of 14 11 May 2012 at 5:20am | IP Logged |
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Druckfehler, Thank you for clearing that up for me. I was mistaken. I thought for some reason it made commands nicer...Now I know it doesn't. Also 6 months since I made this thread, I am understanding doch better along with other particles. But I agree that I just need to be hearing them used more often to get a feel for how and when to use them. I leave for Germany end of July and I am excited to just hear the German spoken more to get a better feel in general.
Thanks again all for your imput. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4702 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 14 of 14 11 May 2012 at 6:04am | IP Logged |
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Nah.
"Doch" is the short version of "jedoch" in this context and it functions as an "aber". We use it to imply stuff. Er ist doch schon da (siehst du es denn nicht?) Das ist aber doch kompliziert(er, als ich angenommen hatte) Und doch musste ich noch einmal zurück (auch wenn ich damit nicht gerechnet hatte) We use "doch" with more structures, and I really liked Davy Putnams explanation above. By the way, you can also say "aber doch", which would be an "aber", but stronger. It emphasizes the "aber". "Nun bist du aber doch früher heim gekommen (dabei hattest du extra von der Arbeit aus angerufen und mir gesagt, du kämst später - darum habe ich nicht extra eingekauft)." 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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