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Common ancestry of French and Portuguese | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| Alfonso Octoglot Senior Member Mexico Joined 6861 days ago 511 posts - 536 votes  Speaks: Biblical Hebrew, Spanish*, French, English, Tzotzil, Italian, Portuguese, Ancient Greek Studies: Nahuatl, Tzeltal, German | Message 9 of 22 29 June 2006 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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Alas Oscuras: What you say about a hypothetical common ancestry between French and Portuguese is quite interesting; I had never thought about it that way. It's true that there was a Celtic presence in north-west Iberia. I don't know how much influence could be between these two languages, although they share some sounds like the nasals and the guttural /r/.
But there are more similarities between Spanish and Portugues in syntax, semantics and grammar. I give you some examples: 1.- French doesn't use Past Tense (passé simple), but it's always used in both Spanish and Portuguese. 2.- Gerunde is rarely used in French, but it's not the same for Spanish and Portuguese (especially Brazilian, where gerund is used almost as much as in Spanish). 3.- Pronunciation rules in French miss a lot of letters that are not pronunced (i.e. the "ent" ending for 3rd plural person, the "s" ending for most of plurals, and the "e" ending for most of feminine words, etc. etc. ). This doesn't happen in Spanish and Portuguese where almost every single letter must be pronunced. That's why I've always thought that Spanish and Portuguese are closer to each other, more than Portuguese and French. How would you explain all these similarities between Spanish and Portuguese to support a common ancestry between Portuguese and French? Edited by Alfonso on 01 July 2006 at 4:31pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Alas Oscuras Diglot Newbie Mexico Joined 6860 days ago 38 posts - 38 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: French, Japanese | Message 10 of 22 29 June 2006 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hi Afonso. Actually I wasn't referring to a greater gramatical affinity,
because it's completely true that Portuguese is a lot more similar to Castillian in many aspects than French. I was talking about the sound scheme, the similar musicality between French and Portuguese. I know it's not that decisively similar to declare an intensely "brothered" relationship between the non Latin tongues that modeled these languages, but their sound modulation share various features, to my ears, a rythm, and specific sounds that are not shared by Italian, or the Andalusian dialect of Castillian, for example. So it's a misunderstanding if you believed I was referring to a common ancestry in an absolute sense. It could be said that my final aim, is to reconstruct to certain degree the basic "sound" of continental Celtic tongues, and listening to the ones that are spoken today in the territories that had a massive Celtic presence is one of the multiple paths that could be followed to start having hints at it. And as I have recently found, a very strong Celtic substratum is due to be expected in both France and Portugal's territories, as well as the north of Iberia. Actually I could go further and make comparisons with Gaelic, but I don't feel prepeared to do so right now. Anyway, from what I understand, Gaelic is included in a different Celtic language branch than those of Gaul and Iberia. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Farley Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 7092 days ago 681 posts - 739 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, GermanB1, French Studies: Spanish | Message 11 of 22 29 June 2006 at 10:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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Alas Oscuras,
That is an interesting idea you have proposed! There is some debate in the US over the Celtic influence over Southern accents, particularly in the Appalachian Mountains. Not everyone agrees, but there is a “Celtic Theory” of Southern history that holds that traditional Southerners where not Anglo-Saxon but Celtic. By Celtic the theory holds that many Southerners are descendants of Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and French Huguenots settlers from the eighteenth century. According to the theory certain Celtic folkways took hold in the South including speech ways. I wonder if there is a connection? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Alas Oscuras Diglot Newbie Mexico Joined 6860 days ago 38 posts - 38 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: French, Japanese | Message 12 of 22 29 June 2006 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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I wish I were familiar with US southern accents, but when you speak
to me of them, I relate immediately relate them with Texas and Bush, and maybe that's not precisely what you're talking about. And it's not very comforting to be reminded of Bush at every turn, to speak the truth, hehe. Well, I won't drag my political opinions here but Bush seems to leak everywhere lately. Anyway, is the Texan accent rather omnipresent in the South? Or there are other southern varieties? It's an interesting guess too, it would be interesting to know their speech patterns. There's another place in America where there's a lot of Celtic modern descendance: Argentina. Some farmers even speak Gaelic still, after so much time of their ancestors arrival to America. So it seems the Celts are among us after all, heh. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Farley Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 7092 days ago 681 posts - 739 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, GermanB1, French Studies: Spanish | Message 13 of 22 30 June 2006 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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I didn’t have Bush in mind at all when posted my remarks. Texas yes, but not Bush. Really I had in mind someone like Willie Nelson, a Country-Western singer, who is also from Texas and has a noted nasal twang in this voice. Certain parts of the South speak with a similar nasal twang. It would be funny if both the Southern and French accents have common origins.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Alas Oscuras Diglot Newbie Mexico Joined 6860 days ago 38 posts - 38 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: French, Japanese | Message 14 of 22 30 June 2006 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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Really? Nasalization? And you say most of the settlers were Irish,
Scottish and Welsh? maybe nasal sounds did were common in both branches of the old Celtic tongues, or that they tended to develop it. But I don't know if actual Welsh, for example, has this feature. But if they share it, I guess that makes more probable the relationship I was talking about. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Farley Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 7092 days ago 681 posts - 739 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, GermanB1, French Studies: Spanish | Message 15 of 22 01 July 2006 at 12:10pm | IP Logged | ||
Yes, really, there are some peculiar nasal sounds in parts of the South. Broadly speaking there are two types of Southern accents, a “low country” accent found in the coastal areas and an “upcountry” accent found in the mountain areas and Texas. The “upcountry” accent derived from the Scotch-Irish. In this case I’m referring to the “upcountry” accent. There are also other parts of the US where people “speak through their nose”, but the accent I have in mind is markedly different. Perhaps it is completely subjective on my part, but the four French nasal sounds “un bon vin blanc” really seem natural to me (I was born and raised in the “upcountry”). So I find it interesting that you see a connection between Portuguese and French with accents. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Alfonso Octoglot Senior Member Mexico Joined 6861 days ago 511 posts - 536 votes Speaks: Biblical Hebrew, Spanish*, French, English, Tzotzil, Italian, Portuguese, Ancient Greek Studies: Nahuatl, Tzeltal, German | Message 16 of 22 09 July 2006 at 6:14pm | IP Logged | ||
Now I understand. Sorry! I misunderstood your idea. Edited by Alfonso on 09 July 2006 at 6:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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