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Portuguese vs French nasal "o" | ||
Tags: Portuguese | French | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4953 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 1 of 9 14 March 2012 at 7:48pm | IP Logged |
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Most resources list the French nasal as IPA /ɔ̃/, and the Portuguese nasal as /õ/.
Basically one is a nasal of an open-mid "o", the other is a close-mid "o" nasal. I haven't had comparisons with native speakers to see if there is a real difference in the realization of the sounds from one another, so perhaps someone with experience in both these languages can help. Is there really any difference in these nasals? To me, nasals are generally not as focused sounds so it's harder to tell the difference (though I can tell a difference between French "brun" and "brin" and I actually do make the distinction even if in many areas these sounds have merged). But is it worth trying to practice these "o" nasals or is the difference too minuscule to bother? Thanks. Edited by outcast on 14 March 2012 at 7:50pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5385 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 2 of 9 14 March 2012 at 8:09pm | IP Logged |
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Two notes. First, the Portuguese sound tends to be a diphthong. Second, the Portuguese sound is indeed different from the French one, but it sometimes sounds awfully close to the Québec one which is sometimes a diphthong as well. Edited by Arekkusu on 14 March 2012 at 8:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4953 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 3 of 9 14 March 2012 at 9:01pm | IP Logged |
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I see, but isn't that "diphthong" quality to the portuguese "o" nasal partly due to the fact that it is realized in more closed position? I just said the word "garçon"/"garçom", first mid-open and then mid-close. In the second, I can't help the fact my tongue does not fully stop at mid-closed /o/, but tends to end further up near /u/, almost leaving a trailing but faint "u" sound.
It may be the fact that starting from open /a/ and going to /õ/ you need to move your tongue quicker, thus apply more force upwards. In the French nasal, the distance from open /a/ to mid-open /ɔ̃/ is a lot less, allowing for a pure vowel at the nasal. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5385 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 4 of 9 14 March 2012 at 9:06pm | IP Logged |
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Long vowels don't all diphthong; in fact, there is no single feature that causes vowel sounds to diphthong, it entirely depends on the language.
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| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4953 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 5 of 9 14 March 2012 at 9:15pm | IP Logged |
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Well, I'm not an expert in phonology so I can't take any issue with your comment. I guess portuguese vowels by nature are more liquid than french ones.
BTW, in isolation I can tell a slight difference, I was just wondering if natives detected a difference in normal speech, which I should have assumed so. I think I have both sounds almost perfectly down anyways, since I have been practicing French and Portuguese for quite some time now. They aren't difficult especially when you are comfortable with tongue placement, and do a lot of listening in both languages. I guess I will try to ensure I do the french sound open and the portuguese more closed when I perform a round of out-loud reading. I can read both OK, I'm now simply doing more fine tuning ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5170 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 6 of 9 27 April 2012 at 3:11am | IP Logged |
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As a native Portuguese and learner of French, I'd say Portuguese /õ/ is less rounded, just like average Portuguese vowels are much less rounded (/u/ especially unstressed being another big example). When I speak French, I try to make it more rounded and it sounds more French. I don't even bother about making it more of an open vowel, even though I'm aware of this as well.
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| smallwhite Pentaglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5312 days ago 537 posts - 1045 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin, French, Spanish | Message 7 of 9 27 April 2012 at 10:47am | IP Logged |
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You can watch videos on youtube and look at people's lips.
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| LaughingChimp Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4703 days ago 346 posts - 594 votes Speaks: Czech* | Message 8 of 9 30 April 2012 at 12:20am | IP Logged |
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I don't speak Portuguese, but there is almost certainly a difference, two sounds in two different languages are rarely exactly the same.
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