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How do I think in Japanese? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4537 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes  Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 9 of 81 15 July 2012 at 10:34pm | IP Logged |
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@Hiiro:
You spent 10 years learning Japanese, admit you still struggle with longer sentences, yet advise the OP to translate in his head "despite what everyone else says", just because you saw "some foreigners speaking on Youtube, using easy words". I saw you write on another occasion, advising against a specific learning resource. Maybe - just maybe - you should take a look at the whole picture, think, then think again ... and see if you CAN really give advice on this subject. Yeah, this may be harsh, but I don't feel like phrasing it in a friendly way today. ____________________________________________________________ @OP: To be able to produce, you have to produce. There's no shortcut. You need to spend a lot of time doing it, don't expect fast results, especially not in a language like Japanese, pretty alien for western learners. You may want to start with writing. Since the link you provided above doesn't contain the info about your Lang-8 experiences you mentioned (I'd like to read about it though), I don't know what to say, other than that I used Lang-8 on and off for months and found it pretty useful, given I pay attention to the corrections and try to incorporate them consciously in later texts. There are several methods to approach speaking. Self-talk is pretty good. Chatting, Skyping helps a ton, too. Since there are a lot of language exchange sites out there, you won't have a problem finding Japanese friends to chat with. Remember, you have to do it, and do it often, and it will take time. HOWEVER I think you generally lack skill. You probably didn't pick one book or course or whatever and followed through to the end. This would be what I would do, in your situation. Comprehension of written and spoken text are different skills, production of written and spoken Japanese are 2 more. I also think you try to amass knowledge about learning the language instead of learning the language. Don't hunt for the perfect method. Pick one, milk it, then chose the next. At some point, you will have freed yourself from the beginner-shackles and can move freely, picking native content to develop your skills while having fun. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| VGKing Newbie United States Joined 4444 days ago 33 posts - 35 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 10 of 81 16 July 2012 at 3:03am | IP Logged |
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@atama warui:
Although pretty much everything that can be said has been said so far, I might as well link you directly to my Lang-8 account to see if that will help in any way. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Hiiro Yui Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 4553 days ago 111 posts - 126 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese | Message 11 of 81 16 July 2012 at 3:14am | IP Logged |
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Atama warui, you don't have to worry about your tone when talking to me. As long as you're making logical arguments, I prefer critism of my positions over pretending to be nice. I do like debate, after all.
You said, "To be able to produce, you have to produce." I agree with this, but I think it applies to all the skills (and sub-skills like pronunciation, accent and understanding non-Toukyou dialects). Going by what VGKing said, he seems to trying to develop all skills at once. We don't know if he prioritizes some over the others, and we don't know what his overall goals in the language are. How native-like does he want to be in each skill? I think the specific advise we give him depends on these answers. I said: I think you should feel free to translate in your head. I’ve always done that. People here say that if you do that, you will be too slow to understand and respond. This isn’t true. When you hear the word “tokoro” (or “toko”), of course you should think “place”. I told him to feel free to translate in his head not because of videos I saw, but because it is possible to do it and still be fast enough, in my experience. I also feel that if you want to use roomaji, you should feel free to. I often take the position opposite of "common sense" because I find a logical reason to do so. Question me at every turn. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4537 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 12 of 81 16 July 2012 at 3:31am | IP Logged |
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There we go again. tokoro doesn't mean "place". tokoro has a much more abstract meaning that can't be translated and derives its direct meaning from context. 今書いてるところだ and これって日本語のいいところだ and 仲間のところにいた would be translated in various ways, while all more or less mean "a thing the tokoro-pointer points at".
The point I'm trying to make is, you have to "get" the sentence in its entirety. Japanese with its omissions, excessive use of "fake passive" and so on will scare him to hell and back if he tries to translate stuff. The languages are so far apart, it just doesn't make sense, especially not in a real-time setting. With some bonus-points to "impossible" due to the fact Japanese is roughly 20% faster than English. Edit: god, this forum is hideous. Not only is it slow as hell, it produces 文字化け Edited by atama warui on 16 July 2012 at 3:33am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4537 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 13 of 81 16 July 2012 at 3:37am | IP Logged |
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VGKing:
I see where your problem lies. You should chose a good textbook and have a go at it. It's too early to bother with serious output exercises. You should also watch stuff made for kids, like 可愛いミッフィー to get a feel for the language. Don't worry, you made the first steps, just go on - but to not get lost on your way, I really recommend following a method (no matter which) and stick with it, as the lessons build on each other. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| VGKing Newbie United States Joined 4444 days ago 33 posts - 35 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 14 of 81 16 July 2012 at 3:46am | IP Logged |
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Atama: I've been studying for a few years, actually. Here's a general history of my
Japanese: I read some Tae Kim (made it through the beginning), floundered around a bunch trying to learn words and kanji and reading on the most basic sites, asked for a lot of help before making that thread and finding LR, downloaded a bunch of audiobooks and texts (mostly from here), and am currently reading some of those texts while grinding through kanji in Anki. In that last regard, I'm trying out another method, since my first Anki deck isn't working out too well (I made a topic about it here some time ago). 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4537 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 15 of 81 16 July 2012 at 3:56am | IP Logged |
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Yeah, I feel you.
Maybe a book like "Making sense of Japanese" can help you with a better general overview. After you read through that, all those Assimil/TYS/Genki/whatever lessons will feel a lot easier. IMHO, at your current level, learning vocab in an isolated fashion is not optimal. I read through a bunch of your entries and the words you use sometimes didn't fit to a point I wondered what it was you tried to say. While I don't really agree with Hiiro's first post, there's truth in the "fluency with few words" point in that less words are less of a hurdle when trying to think, because you are then forced to use circumlocutions, which would not be desirable "endgame", but right now are actually _useful_. Learn some stuff like 場所、状態、物, and then try to describe what you mean by picking the appropriate one instead of looking the word up and in the course of doing that learning inappropriate vocab. So a kettle is "the *thing* you use to cook", a car is "the *thing* you use to drive", drowsiness is "*the state of* being tired and sleepy" and so on. Don't feel shy producing 2-word-sentences. This is where we all start. You will feel comfortable with that, then expand slowly, until you are basically able to express a whole lot. And THEN you can amass vocab till your head explodes and actually benefit from it. That's my 2 cent. Edited by atama warui on 16 July 2012 at 3:57am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4537 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 16 of 81 16 July 2012 at 4:03am | IP Logged |
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P.S.: I see you didn't DO any corrections. Correct some stuff and natives will be more inclined to correct your writings, too. Lang-8 is a give-and-take kinda thing. :)
1 person has voted this message useful |
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