|
 |
Idioms/Expressions and their use | ||
Tags: Idiom | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| cmmah Diglot Groupie Ireland Joined 4536 days ago 52 posts - 110 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Irish | Message 1 of 18 31 January 2013 at 11:44pm | IP Logged | ||
|
In a French-learning book, I read that the phrase "moulin a paroles" roughly translates as "chatterbox" or "someone
who talks constantly". When I was skiing in France, and on a ski lift with a girl from my ski lesson, there was a young toddler beside us who wouldn't shut up. I was speaking to the girl, and referred to the toddler as a "moulin a paroles" - she looked at me like I had ten heads, and even after I had explained, she said that she had never heard that expression before. Another few expressions (all of which I got from French learning material) which got me a similar reception with French speakers are "avoid des atoms crochus", "ce n'est pas la mer a boire" and "se croire sorti de la cuisse de Jupiter". It's notable that when I put these expressions into the French Google, some of the first results are websites for learners of French. Has anyone else had this experience of learning materials containing outdated or rarely-used idioms? Do you think I just have unreliable sources, or should I start learning idioms solely from native materials? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5537 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 18 01 February 2013 at 12:46am | IP Logged | ||
"Ce n'est pas la mer à boire" apparently comes from the fables of Fontaine, which are rather well known in France. So this is no more obscure than quoting something from Aesop's fables would be in English. I've heard people use it, though not very often. And see this, too.
Yeah, 75% of what I've seen in French "slang books" for students is really suspicious looking, and I've never seen it anywhere else or heard anyone use it. And given the kind of low-brow stuff I sometimes read and watch, that's not a good sign. :-) If you want to learn slang, learn it from actual French sources. You'll still make native speakers break out laughing every now and then, but it will be more, "Oh, isn't that just hilarious with a foreign accent!" instead of "WTF are you saying?" Even better yet, learn by listening to actual French speakers of your own age and social group, if you can arrange it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4670 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 3 of 18 01 February 2013 at 2:35am | IP Logged | ||
|
At my French meetup the other night, one of the native speakers used the phrase "comme une vache espagnole" in response to someone asking whether he spoke English, and I noticed a few of the non-natives didn't understand the idiom. So, go Assimil. :-P
As far as slang, though, I've learned most of mine so far from random amateur YouTube videos made by the twenty - thirty set. And a few things from Engrenages. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s0fist Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5051 days ago 260 posts - 445 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Sign Language, German, Spanish, French | Message 4 of 18 01 February 2013 at 3:53am | IP Logged | ||
|
Idioms can be hard to come by naturally, especially when they reference literature.
What's the last time you heard someone say "twenty three skidoo", "to a fare-thee-well", or "short shrift" or a thousand others like it? I still encounter idiomatic usage in both Russian and English that I've never heard or seen before. Mostly in print, rarely in spoken word though. On top of idioms, a lot of quotes (from literature, cult movies, politics and religion) get used idiomatically, even though you'd never find them in a dictionary. And it can differ based on age, social group, etc. That's culture for you. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5537 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 5 of 18 01 February 2013 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | ||
OK, I had the urge to take another look at moulin à paroles, which I had never heard before. And I thought it might be useful to list the tools I used to look it up. 1. Searching on Google.fr turns up plenty of native sources. Note that regular Google.com will always give you stuff aimed at English-speaking French students unless you go here and make French your primary language for Google products, and English your secondary language. If you can deal with French Gmail, I recommend doing this. 2. Wiktionnaire, Expressio.fr and Linguee all turn useful information, though Linguee has only a dozen or so real matches, which tells us this isn't a common expression. 3. La dictionnaire de la zone doesn't turn up any matches. This a smaller French equivalent of the Urban Dictionary, and it's quite useful if you find seriously incomprehensible slang in rap lyrics or something. 4. Google Translate gives us four possible translations for "chatterbox": bavard, moulin à paroles, jaseur, jacasseur. We can't really trust Google Translate, but it's a starting point. 5. If we punch those 4 translations into Google Ngram Viewer, we get a really clear answer: The most popular expression here is bavard, by a very wide margin. A few quick sanity checks (using the tools listed above) suggest that bavard is your best choice here. I hope these links help somebody who's interested in French expressions and slang. :-) 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5435 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 6 of 18 01 February 2013 at 11:03pm | IP Logged | ||
|
In my opinion all the four idioms cited in the OP have been around for quite a while and are still current. There may be various reasons for a native speaker not understanding them (age, accent, context) but they are all valid and perfectly acceptable today.
Idioms are not necessarily slang which can be quite ephemeral. I hear and use "ce n'est pas la mer à boire" and "avoir les atômes crochus" all the time. The are not dated slang at all. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| cmmah Diglot Groupie Ireland Joined 4536 days ago 52 posts - 110 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Irish | Message 7 of 18 01 February 2013 at 11:33pm | IP Logged | ||
I see you've listed your location as Canada, so I'm assuming that you're from Quebec. I think a lot of my learning materials are aimed at US learners (i.e. use US spelling, a lot of US news stories used as content). Perhaps these are regional to Quebec, as I've only spoken to people from France and North Africa (it's easier to arrange because of similar timezones). I had assumed that these materials would have focused on the French of France, but it would make sense seeing as Quebec is much closer to the US. Maybe I'm wrong though. Admittedly though, the French-speakers who didn't recognize the two idioms you mentioned in your post are bilingual native-Anglophones here in Ireland (my school's French teachers), and this has discouraged me from usig them when speaking with native Francophones. Maybe being out of an immersion environment for a while has left them out of touch with phrases such as this? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4673 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 8 of 18 02 February 2013 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | ||
|
Learning idioms from a dictionary can be tricky since there are many idioms which are used only once in a blue moon...
We definitely need a frequency dictionary of idioms. Sometimes L2 users tend to overuse idioms (I used to do this in Portuguese). This makes your style very marked (you speak as if you were a character from a novel, or even worse, from a cartoon). So, use idioms sparingly. ''Idiomatic usage'' has more to do with using right collocations (and phrasal verbs) than overusing idioms (and other fixed expressions), proverbs, and witty comparisons (like ''drunk as a skunk''). Saying ''Hold your horses!'' can be fun, but you should know 1. when to use it (in what kind of situation); 2. and with whom... Idioms, like slang words come and go quickly. It's very easy to get ''too quaint [of] a style'' if you don't use only the most up-to-date expressions. Furthermore, L2 users of English tend to neglect the abbreviations. Americans just love their abbreviations, like DWI... Edited by Medulin on 02 February 2013 at 8:04pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
