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Are older Assimil courses outdated? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Kronos Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5293 days ago 186 posts - 452 votes  Speaks: German*, English | Message 33 of 72 17 August 2013 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
There is a certain irony to it. In customer reviews people like to complain about language courses that are ten or fifteen years old and still dare mention words like "record" or "tape recorder" (as if that would make any difference). But then we had several threads here where people complain about the current (perhaps written in the 1980s) Assimil Spanish course not being all too well-structured and featuring too much exotic vocabulary, and as a result turn to Spanish without Toil which - what most people are not aware of - is still fifty years older - pre-Spanish Civil War - but apparently more practical and still more useful than what is currently on offer. I would not be surprised if after close inspection even the old courses for Dutch and Modern Greek eventually turn out to be relatively fresh and better suited for getting a good foothold and enter into the living stream of those languages than many current courses are capable of. Some of the old courses remained in print right through the 80s, sometimes 90s, surely not without good reason, and Prof. Arguelles actually used the old Modern Greek course as a demonstration copy in his detailed video on how to Shadow. As a language professor he surely would not have done so in a public video if this course was in any way useless by now. (my newer 1980s copy has been edited and slightly updated though) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4739 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 34 of 72 17 August 2013 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Concerning the Dutch being outdated - there were also several spelling reforms (for
example mens used to be spelled mensch, vis as visch, etc, but since -sch word-finally had become /s/ by this time, it was simplified in the orthography). The real problem with the cases was that they were not representative of speech. Dutch had lost cases much earlier, but in an attempt to nobilify (?) the language, someone decided some couple hundred years ago that we needed cases like Latin. So we had them German style. But the pronunciation even in those days had degraded so far that the cases didn't actually accurately reflect what was being spoken, and that was for the major dialectal areas - if you would have spelled it to someone from, say, Groningen or Hasselt... pointless (Flemish conserved the 3rd gender, Gronings is low Saxon, etc...) The cases were finally abolished because they were not being used by the people. The authorities then decided to abolish the whole thing in both the Netherlands and Belgium. However, in some Belgian dialects the way of saying the articles (often as d'n) reminds me a bit of archaic cases. Summa summarum, you may find the tapes from those days useful, because speech didn't entirely match the written language, but in terms of writing it's useless. But I would not recommend using any Dutch textbook from before the mid-90s. The orthography reforms that were dominant after WWII are still radically different from Dutch today. Edited by tarvos on 17 August 2013 at 7:28pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| ericblair Senior Member United States Joined 4743 days ago 480 posts - 700 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 35 of 72 17 August 2013 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Interesting. Thanks for the helpful rundown! Do you know if the newest Dutch with Ease
(English base) is new enough to be okay? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4739 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 36 of 72 17 August 2013 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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That one is good enough. But there's an easy check - are Latinate imports written with c
or k? If it's with a c, it's the correct orthography. Words such as "correctie", "productie", "fabricatie", "insect" need to be spelled with a c and not with a k. Edited by tarvos on 17 August 2013 at 7:58pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| BlaBla Triglot Groupie Spain Joined 4161 days ago 45 posts - 72 votes Speaks: German*, English, French Studies: Nepali, Spanish, Dutch, Mandarin | Message 37 of 72 18 August 2013 at 12:32am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Heck, I took the plunge and actually started my journey through the old edtition of "Spanisch ohne Muehe"
today and went up to unit 15 in one go. So far I translated everything from L1 to L2 right away, I only had to look up 5 words, no big deal. To me the Spanish of those chapters doesn't look outdated, but as mentioned before I'll ask some Spanish friends as soon as I'm back in Spain. Since I have a lot of other material to work through I wouldn't mind some little dust along the way, at least not in this case. I have already boarded the train, met the English gentleman and the two ladies, and Madrid is just a few units away. Lots of fun so far, far more than I had with the somewhat derailed 1996 edition and who knows - I might even complete the journey, even if it takes some time but it might well be worth it. Any idea where to get the accompanying recordings anyone ? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| ericblair Senior Member United States Joined 4743 days ago 480 posts - 700 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 38 of 72 18 August 2013 at 5:32am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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My copy of Dutch Without Toil arrived today. It is quite a bit different from the
format of the more recent With Ease series. It is a hardback. It also has 132(!) lessons. One big difference is how the lessons are set up. Every other Assimil I ever had has lessons on facing pages. However, this Dutch book has the English on the back of the page with the Dutch on it. Every Dutch page starts on the right page, and the translation of it is behind it. It is definitely a different setup to get used to! Here are a few sentences from Lesson 78 randomly chosen:
Is that enough to know if that spelling is proper for "modern" Dutch, or would a longer sample be needed? It also has a short grammatical index that references reforms advocated by Dutch linguists and refers to examples such as:
Pronunciation determines if it is necessary to write "s" or "sch" and it refers to the reader to Note 5 of Lesson 123 which says:
Does that seem in line with "modern" Dutch? Oh, and this seems important. From page 409
This is the 1979 version of the book. So maybe the older Without Toil edition does have declensions? However, I don't know any Dutch, so I'd be glad to have a native speaker, or student of the language, chime in on if this seems like a decent resource after-all. Also, does anyone happen to own the 1981 edition of German Without Toil in the English base? I also ordered that (I've been on a kick lately of buying up old materials), but it has not arrived yet. I am just curious about whether or not it follows the same setup as this Dutch Without Toil in having the translation of the German lesson on the next page rather than the facing page. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| BlaBla Triglot Groupie Spain Joined 4161 days ago 45 posts - 72 votes Speaks: German*, English, French Studies: Nepali, Spanish, Dutch, Mandarin | Message 39 of 72 18 August 2013 at 9:17am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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That's the version I mentioned, hardback with 132 lessons - my copy has been printed in 1989, ten years
later ! Even though the contents possibly date back to 1951 or even decades earlier I find it hard to believe that they sell you a book that's basically outdated at the date of printing and shouldn't be used anymore. Did you notice the "Questions on Orthography" towards the end of the book, where the reforms are mentioned ? Same in Les 123.5: S ? SCH ? - 'Gegenüber der früher üblichen Schreibweise, wird nach der NEUEN Orthographie nur dann sch geschrieben, wenn man ßch spricht, wie in schoon, schrijven, bisschop, beschaamd. ...' Could anyone comment on this ? Can't help it but yet again I like this old edition a lot more than their recent offerings. On a side note, the binding of this copy is much better than that of some older copies in my collection - sewn vs.glue. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| BlaBla Triglot Groupie Spain Joined 4161 days ago 45 posts - 72 votes Speaks: German*, English, French Studies: Nepali, Spanish, Dutch, Mandarin | Message 40 of 72 18 August 2013 at 10:41am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Thanks Tarvos, some examples from my 1989 copy: directeur, carbonpapier, effecten, fiscus, concurrent, confectiepak, fiscal, but kroniek, dokter, publiek, kolonies Any comments anyone ? Tarvos ? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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