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Article: Students fall short on Vocabulary | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 217 of 319 23 April 2014 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
(Of course language classes and coursebooks also contribute to the bs idea that language learning is for young healthy people...) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5530 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 218 of 319 23 April 2014 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Yeah, this number is based on a 5,000 word dictionary. But even so, it seems low—out of the top 6,000 French words, there's something like 2,500 or 3,500 transparent cognates, according to a list in Essential French Grammar (this is from memory; I don't have the book at hand). So let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that the university graduates in question are actually rather weak in French. If this were the case, we could surely find evidence other than the vocabulary test. And sure enough, the paper provides some anecdotal evidence (emphasis added):
I know I've already quoted this at least once in this long thread, but I keep coming back to it. Let's compare these anecdotes to the CEFRL standard: "We no longer routinely lecture through the medium of French…" According to the old CEFRL self-assessment checklist, the ability to follow a classroom lecture is generally a B2 or a C1 skill:
…we cut down the number of books students read, to enable them to cope, and much of the work in done in translation. Again, there is little reason why a B2 or C1 student should be doing "much of the work" in translation:
So the French graduates, with their supposed "3300 words on average", do not appear to be terribly comfortable with B2-level tasks, and their professors actively avoid challenging them with C1-level tasks. This makes the 3,300 number much more believable: It may seem shocking that French graduates have such a small vocabulary, but it's no more shocking than the fact that they apparently read French works in translation or that their lectures are mostly given in English. Now, I'm usually a big proponent of the idea that "B1 language skills are awesome, and should be appreciated!" But that's because B1 language skills allow you to almost completely immerse yourself in your L2, as either a tourist or a house guest, and to function independently in most situations. But if you spend years in a university, focusing the major part of your efforts on French literature, French culture, and the French language, you should certainly get more out of it than B1 tourist French. You should at least be able to follow a discussion on Bibliothèque Médicis, or comfortably read Voltaire in the original. This is not too much to ask—and this level of competence is pretty much the bare minimum if you want to engage with French culture first-hand. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4663 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 219 of 319 23 April 2014 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Yes to the input. There wasn't much of that at school, from what I remember, so the implication would be that University life doesn't provide massive input either. Presumably the students who end up being more able go out of their way to acquire additional input in some form? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4663 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 220 of 319 23 April 2014 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Did I misunderstand @s_allard here?
I took that to mean that they (the students) would be quite likely to interact (as opposed to not interact). I didn't take it to mean that they'd only be attracted to (and therefore interact with) fellow English speakers. Perhaps you (both) though @s_allard was suggesting that the interactions would be mostly of a non-verbal nature? Surely there has to be some verbal interaction first :-)
This too would appear to be a positive comment. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5007 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 221 of 319 23 April 2014 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Ah, my bad, sorry. Thanks, dampingwire.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 222 of 319 23 April 2014 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I still think that Cavesa was right that being a native speaker of English is a much more important factor than age.
edit: and the "positiveness" of the comment is somewhat akin to benevolent sexism. Women or teenagers are not a different species. Edited by Serpent on 23 April 2014 at 5:39pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5007 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 223 of 319 23 April 2014 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Yes, that is true. Thanks Serpent. No matter how I look at the comment, it is not quite alright.
I think there is one root coming out of the article and the discussion. The teachers at the universities are to blame for not pushing their students to work hard enough. I think you won't see the same approach in any technical, medical or other "serious" field. When a student enters faculty of medicine, he or she is expected to work hard and to cover their individual gaps from previous schooling on their own in order to catch up with the rest The curriculum is not being dumbed down to make it easier to pass. The universities know they cannot just let out engeneers without proper knowledge of physics or medical doctors without anatomy. They just cannot see the same need to teach properly students whose future failures will be unlikely to kill people. So, the author of the paper should not complain students don't know enough when entering university and that they don't learn enough during the year abroad. Instead, she should look critically on the work she and her collegues have been doing while the students are in their hands and become more demanding again. Stop giving a degree for free and students will work hard and suceed again. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 4080 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes Speaks: English Studies: German | Message 224 of 319 23 April 2014 at 6:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
It is starting. http://qz.com/192071/how-one-college-went-from-10-fe male-computer-science- majors-to-40/ Edited by Gemuse on 23 April 2014 at 6:49pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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