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Sentence in Korean - HELP!
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15 messages over 2 pages: 1 2

vientito
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Message 9 of 15

03 February 2012 at 4:12am | IP Logged

i think 느니 has no intrinsic value of better or inferior. It is only a marker for forming a comparison, sort of similar to "than" in English. What attaches the goodness or badness or preference is the verb in the main clause. Here the verb in the main clause is 못하다 which is inferior, as opposed to 낫다. So you string them all together - would give "saying it would be worse (than not saying it)" That "than" is represented by the marker 느니 attached to the end of the the secondary clause. That secondary clause, I suppose in korean ordering of things, could be placed anywhere. An example I quote from some online material

앓느니 죽는다 would rather die than be sick

Here the secondary clause happens to be placed before the main clause 죽는다

while 그런 칭찬은 안 하느니만 못해요 the order is switched but i suppose it could be as well written like this

안 하느니 그런 칭찬은 못해요 same meaning but relative position of the clauses is switched.

no matter how you place things, you only need to focus on those markers to tell where they belong. 은 is the topic marker than marks the main noun clause so it is the part that links with the verb ending 못해요.

I suppose 느니 is very close in meaning to another marker 보다.
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kadiz1108
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Studies: Japanese

Message 10 of 15

22 February 2012 at 2:53pm | IP Logged

Odysseus wrote:

I think your misunderstanding is coming from a misinterpretation of
"못하다" It's not "못 하다" (cannot do), but rather "못하다" (to be inferior). Thus, it
means, "to do other than not make that kind of compliment is inferior," meaning it's
better to not do it.

I think this clearly explains the meaning.

http://endic.naver.com/krenEntry.nhn?
entryId=55fcdec68e354e0aaab0b86c21c0004f&query=%EB%AA%BB%ED% 95%98%EB%8B%A4

check out this link.

vientito wrote:

i think 느니 has no intrinsic value of better or inferior. It is only
a marker for forming a comparison, sort of similar to "than" in English. What attaches
the goodness or badness or preference is the verb in the main clause. Here the verb in
the main clause is 못하다 which is inferior, as opposed to 낫다. So you string them all
together - would give "saying it would be worse (than not saying it)" That "than" is
represented by the marker 느니 attached to the end of the the secondary clause. That
secondary clause, I suppose in korean ordering of things, could be placed anywhere. An
example I quote from some online material

앓느니 죽는다 would rather die than be sick

Here the secondary clause happens to be placed before the main clause 죽는다

while 그런 칭찬은 안 하느니만 못해요 the order is switched but i suppose it could be as well
written like this

안 하느니 그런 칭찬은 못해요 same meaning but relative position of the clauses is switched.

no matter how you place things, you only need to focus on those markers to tell where
they belong. 은 is the topic marker than marks the main noun clause so it is the part
that links with the verb ending 못해요.

I suppose 느니 is very close in meaning to another marker 보다.

I'm actually poor at Korean grammar, so it is hard to explain.
However, 안 하느니 그런 칭찬은 못해요. cannot make the sentence, because '칭찬' is topic for
'안 하다', so it should come before '안 하다'

그런 칭찬은 안하느니 못해요 is just fine.

GREGORG4000 wrote:

According to this:

Quote:

나는 차라리 죽느니만 같지 못하다 생각했다.

Pattern: -느니만 못 하다 is worse than doing Or: -느니 (= 는 이) the act.fact of doing

Here: would be worse than death

I guess that pattern means something like "I cannot do anything preferable to (whatever
precedes 느니)", and this particular grammar pattern is just another one of those which
is innate to Korean speakers but not/barely documented online.

As GREGORG4000 said, -느니만 ALWAYS comes with 못하다, so it might be much easier to
consider this as one of the expressions. -느니 못하다 also has the exact same meaning,
and I suppose it is just contracted expression.
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Balliballi
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Studies: Korean

Message 11 of 15

02 March 2012 at 10:59am | IP Logged

I think I understand now. I looked up "못하다" in my Android Korean-English dictionary (it came with the phone), and confirmed that one of the meanings is "inferior, worse than, not as good as" as Odysseus noted.

The key for me is realizing that "그런 칭찬은" ("praise like this") is the "subject" of "못해요".

"느니" only means "than" in this sentence as Vientito pointed out.

From the dictionary, there is this example: "...보다 못해 보이다" = "compare unfavorably with; cannot stand comparison with [whatever comes immediately before the "보다" part presumably]".

Looking at the sentence again,
"칭찬도 칭찬 나름이지 그런 칭찬은 안 하느니만 못해요."

... we can ignore the first part because that part is straightforward, which leaves us with:
"그런 칭찬은 안 하느니만 못해요."

We can rewrite it as:
"그런 칭찬은 안 하[다] 보다 못해요."

So something (S1) "compares unfavorably with" something (S2). ( "...보다 못해 보이다" = "compare unfavorably with")

S1="그런 칭찬은" and S2="안 하[다]"

Putting this all together, the sentence translates as:
"Giving praise like this compares unfavorably with not doing it (giving the praise)." or "Praise like this is worse than not doing it (giving the praise)." <--- Isn't Korean a lax language where a verb is compared with a noun? Comparing a verb to a noun is bad grammar in English. The comparison of a verb with a noun in this sentence is also what helped me get onto the wrong track.

Another example (taken from the dictionary) is: "그는 짐승만도 못하다" ("He is worse than a beast.") "그는" is the "subject" of "못하다", and "that person" compares unfavorably with "a beast" ("짐승").

I got confused because in the grammar book, whatever happens in clause 2 - the clause after "느니" - is always preferable to whatever happens in Clause 1 in the examples given, and it actually states in the book that it has to be that way: "This pattern expresses that the contents of the second clause are better than or preferable to those of the first clause. The second clause can also be accompanied by adverbs like "차라리" preferably [..] The verb in the first clause must be an action verb. One can also add the comparative particle "-보다" to this pattern with no change in meaning." (page 260)

I wish the book ("Korean Grammar for International Learners") had added that there is an EXCEPTION to this rule when the verb "못하다" is involved! It would have saved me a lot of time and confusion if it had. [!!!!!] I wouldn't have spent HOURS trying to work out this sentence.

The "praise" sentence is just a straightforward comparison-type ("보다") sentence (with the proviso that "느니" is used instead of "보다") and in meaning and construction it is like this one: "그는 형 보다 크다." ("He is taller than his brother.") The verb in the case of the "praise" sentence is "못하다" and it means "be worse".

Edited by Balliballi on 03 March 2012 at 1:16am
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Ojorolla
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Message 12 of 15

02 March 2012 at 12:30pm | IP Logged

Balliballi wrote:

We can rewrite it as:
"그런 칭찬은 안 하[다] 보다 못해요."

Neither of them is correct. "그런 칭찬은 안하는 것보다 못해요" would work. But 안하느니만 못해요 is the best.

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Balliballi
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Message 13 of 15

02 March 2012 at 12:46pm | IP Logged

Ojorolla wrote:

Balliballi wrote:

We can rewrite it as:
"그런 칭찬은 안 하[다] 보다 못해요."

Neither of them is correct. "그런 칭찬은 안하는 것보다 못해요" would work. But 안하느니만 못해요 is the best.

I put "다" in brackets to show that I did not know what the correct ending was for this verb.

I originally typed "하기" but wasn't sure if this was correct so I changed it to "[다]".

Edited by Balliballi on 02 March 2012 at 1:14pm
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Ojorolla
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Message 14 of 15

02 March 2012 at 1:46pm | IP Logged

"안하기보다 못해요" doesn't sound correct to me, either. Hope this helps.

Edited by Ojorolla on 02 March 2012 at 2:09pm
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Balliballi
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Studies: Korean

Message 15 of 15

02 March 2012 at 2:42pm | IP Logged

Ojorolla wrote:

"안하기보다 못해요" doesn't sound correct to me, either. Hope this helps.

I probably shouldn't have said:

Quote:

We can rewrite it as:
"그런 칭찬은 안 하[다] 보다 못해요."

I didn't have any idea whether you could say that or not. You probably can't use "보다" the same way as you use "느니".

I also wrote:

Quote:

Putting this all together, the sentence translates as:
"Giving praise like this compares unfavorably with not doing it (giving the praise)." or "Praise like this is worse than not doing it (giving the praise)."

On reflection, I am not sure the sentence means that. Could it mean: "Praise like this compares unfavorably with doing nothing."?

Edited by Balliballi on 03 March 2012 at 1:16am

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