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Passive Voice in German | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4953 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 9 of 16 18 March 2012 at 9:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well, it depends because there are several unrelated circumstances that may cause "es" to be there.
If I assume right and you are talking about the passive voice use of "es", as you probably know you can't turn a dative object to a passive subject, it's not really possible (whereas you can turn an accusative to a passive subject), example: Du siehst mich. Ich werde von dir gesehen. What was the accusative in the active sentence (" you see me" became the subject in the passive ("I am seen"). You can't do this with a dative object. Du hilfst mir. Ich werde von dir geholfen *WRONG* The dative in the active voice (mir) MUST remain dative in the passive voice, thus: Mir wird von dir geholfen. Since this last passive sentence has no explicit grammatical subject ("mir" is dative and "von dir" is an adverbial phrase), one can if they wish use "es" as a dummy subject: Es wird mir von dir geholfen. This "es" is understood by natives without having to be written. This becomes clear in the following situation: Wir helfen den Armen. (active) Den Armen wird von uns geholfen. Notice the verb is still "wird". At first you may think that is wrong since "Den Armen" is a plural *subject*, but notice the definite Article, it's in the dative!! Remember, a dative active object remains dative in the passive. Thus "Den Armen" is NOT the grammatical subject of that sentence! (that is interference from English via word order which makes us think it is a subject because it begins the sentence). An implicit "es" is the understood grammatical subject. Notice: Es wird den Armen von uns geholfen. Now "wird" makes sense because it is conjugated for the "es" (whether its written or not). This is all somewhat complicated I know, I still don't really fully understand it 100%, because it deals with very fundamental issues of transitivity/intransitivity in languages and how they grammaticaly indicate or treat these features. I understand the mechanics and even some of the underlying reasons (you have to read up on language alignment and things like nominative/accusative vs ergative/absolutive to start catching a glimpse as to the why of these verbal rules), but it is still a complicated subject for me to attempt to elucidate to others. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| LebensForm Senior Member Austria Joined 5054 days ago 212 posts - 264 votes Studies: German | Message 10 of 16 18 March 2012 at 10:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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Your example was very helpful xD. I do understand that if it is in the dative in the active, must remain in the dative for the passive. I know it is not the best to try to translate directly from German, but could a somewhat awkward sounding equivalent be, it is the poor being helped by us?, for your last sentence.
But yes, you did help clear that up! Edited by LebensForm on 18 March 2012 at 10:14pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4953 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 11 of 16 18 March 2012 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have thought about that kind of translation before, I guess it is plausible, but I'm not sure if it is analogous, as English no longer has verbs which only take objects in a morphological certain case.
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| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6089 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 12 of 16 20 March 2012 at 8:57pm | IP Logged | ||
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this is a bit advanced but here's some sentences to help illustrate when to use "es":
"es" acts as subject in passive sentences when (1) the subject has no definite article, Bottles were thrown --) Es wurden Flaschen geworfen. ("Flaschen" is an unspecified amount and has no definite article) or (2) there is no "real" subject, One speaks, of course, a lot about the weather while hiking Man spricht auf Wanderungen natürlich viel über das Wetter.(active) Es wird auf Wanderungen natürlich viel über das Wetter gesprochen (passive with "es") BUT I've learned that it's best to use another part of the sentence at the beginning (when possible) and not use "es": Auf Wanderungen wird natürlich viel über das Wetter gesprochen. (passive without "es") German passive sentence structure is a lot more flexible than English. Here the adverbial clause goes in the first position. Luckily the helping verb (wird) is always second! edit: another possibilty for that sentence could be: Natürlich wird auf Wanderungen viel über das Wetter gesprochen either way, you avoid the "es". Edited by Sunja on 20 March 2012 at 8:59pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4953 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 13 of 16 20 March 2012 at 11:04pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yup, that is the impersonal use of the passive. It is useful when you need to emphasize the activity the verb describes. In your example, the emphasis is on the fact throwing of bottles was taking place, and the agents are of course uknwown or not important.
And yes, when the impersonal "es" is in a sentece with verb modifiers it is ommited. I just need to apply these advanced features in my fluent speech, still not there. :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Aporia Newbie Joined 4871 days ago 1 posts - 1 votes Speaks: German Studies: Latin, Ancient Greek | Message 14 of 16 23 March 2012 at 11:19pm | IP Logged | ||
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Another way the dummy "es" is used is with instransitive verbs. In English it is improper to say "it was walked", but in German it is perfectly correct.
For Example: Es wird auf der Party viel getanzt. lit. "It is much danced at the party." or "There is a lot of dancing at the party." I suppose it can be considered similar to "es gibt". 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6089 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 15 of 16 24 March 2012 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | ||
"Sein" is the auxilliary verb for the "Zustandspassiv". Active: Er verkauft das Haus Passive: Das Haus ist verkauft A: Er verkaufte das Haus P: Das Haus war verkauft A: Er hat das Haus verkauft P: Das Haus ist verkauft gewesen A: Er hatte das Haus verkauft P: Das Haus war verkauft gewesen A: Er wird das Haus verkaufen P: Das Haus wird verkauft sein It's called the "false passive" in English, and for sentences like "Das Haus wird verkauft sein", English speakers call "verkauft sein" a predicate adjective (Prädikatadjektiv), which is actually pretty interesting... but really confusing, I think. "werden" is the auxiliary verb for the "Vorgangspassiv". A: Er verkauft das Haus P: Das Haus wird verkauft A: Er verkaufte das Haus P: Das Haus wurde verkauft A: Er hat das Haus verkauft P: Das Haus ist verkauft worden A: Er hatte das Haus verkauft P: Das Haus war verkauft worden A: Er wird das Haus verkaufen P: Das Haus wird verkauft werden So, the difference is that "Vorgangspassiv" (-werden-) describes the actual process of something being done to the the house and "Zustandspassiv" (-sein-) describes the condition of the house after something was already done to it -- whether it's bought, sold, destroyed or renovated. Verbs for which there can be nobody doing the action can't be passive. For example, "The house is collapsed" has no agent or person doing the action so it can't be passive. Edited by Sunja on 24 March 2012 at 7:01pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6089 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 16 of 16 24 March 2012 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | ||
I like "dummy es"! And I think this is true. Short sentences (als einleitender Satz) with intransitive verbs is where it sounds the best. It's also really common for "es" to be replaced .. Jetzt wird getanzt! Bald wird getanzt! Which is either a statement (get ready, there's gonna be some dancing) or a call to act like I'd say "jetzt wird (aber) geschlafen" to my kids when it's 10 and they're still not asleep. It means "okay now it's time to sleep -- so do it!" (lol) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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