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What is this Portuguese construction? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4950 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 1 of 10 20 March 2012 at 6:18am | IP Logged | ||
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I'm at a loss to understand it. I am reading the portuguese translation of Le Petit Prince (O principezinho):
Deve-se é olhar para elas e cheirá-las. Devia era ter-me enternecido. Both "dever" and "ser" are conjugated and one after the other, making the structure rather unusual in any of the languages I'm familiar with, so I can't tell if one verb is dependent to the other or not. Any help in clarifying what this pattern is and what it means is appreciated. EDIT: another example I just found: Preciso é de uma cadeira. I kind of have a vague idea of what this construction may be saying, but I can't spit it out. I would still find the explanation of any native or profficient speaker valuable. Edited by outcast on 20 March 2012 at 6:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5833 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 2 of 10 20 March 2012 at 9:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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The use of the verb ser in these sentences is to shift emphasis in the sentence.
Deve-se olhar para elas e cheirá-las. One ought to look at them and smell them. Deve-se é olhar para elas e cheirá-las. What one ought to do is look at them and smell them. Preciso de uma cadeira. I need a chair Preciso é de uma cadeira. What I need is a chair. I think in Spanish you would be more likely to use lo que in this sort of sentence. Lo que necesito es una silla. Other examples: Eu quero é ser feliz. Eu é que fiz isso Edited by stelingo on 20 March 2012 at 9:44pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 3 of 10 20 March 2012 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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so is "o que..." basically assumed there? like, "Do que preciso é de uma cadeira."
are these sentences elliptical? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4950 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 4 of 10 20 March 2012 at 10:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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That is exactly what I thought, because a lot of the sentences I'm encountering with this usage would translate with a relative pronoun construction in Spanish.
Thanks though because I needed the confirmation and the description you gave with the examples help substantially, stelingo. So just to be sure, the main verb is conjugated according to person but "ser" always remains impersonal in the 3rd person singular/plural, correct? Thanks! Edited by outcast on 21 March 2012 at 12:46am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5833 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 5 of 10 22 March 2012 at 1:28am | IP Logged | ||
I think so, hopefully a native speaker will confirm. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| random_man Triglot Newbie Brazil Joined 6279 days ago 7 posts - 7 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English, Spanish Studies: Russian, French | Message 6 of 10 27 March 2012 at 6:04am | IP Logged | ||
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I think stelingo gave a good explanation.
The verb "ser" should be impersonal, but in the singular. I can't think now of any situation in which it would be in the plural. As for the tense, it won't necessarily always agree with that of the preceding verb when you hear natives speak (at least in Brazil). I don't know if there's a rule for that, it might be that you can say it both ways in many circumstances. Ex.: Eles queriam é(era) que eu aceitasse aquilo. Precisei foi(é) de ajuda. Vocês vão é embora daqui. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 7 of 10 27 March 2012 at 8:02am | IP Logged | ||
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But does it imply "o que..."?
i mean o que eles queriam etc... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| fabriciocarraro Hexaglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Brazil russoparabrasileirosRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4716 days ago 989 posts - 1454 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, EnglishB2, Italian, Spanish, Russian, French Studies: Dutch, German, Japanese | Message 8 of 10 27 March 2012 at 4:13pm | IP Logged | ||
Yes and no. Usually the construction has the meaning you said. Using the last sentences: "(O que) Eles queriam é(era) que eu aceitasse aquilo." "(O que eu) Precisei foi(é) de ajuda." But in the 3rd sentence, "o que" makes no sense. Maybe it implies "Aonde" or "Para onde": "(Aonde/Para onde) Vocês vão é embora daqui." Or if you want to force the "o que": "(O que) Vocês vão (fazer) é (ir) embora daqui." I hope it's clear enough. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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