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Old [well, Middle] English experts! | ||
Tags: Translation | English | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| zerrubabbel Senior Member United States Joined 4601 days ago 232 posts - 287 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Mandarin | Message 1 of 9 14 June 2013 at 7:12am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Im on a favor mission for a friend of mine, wondering if I could get a translation to Modern English please :D
this is the text Yow that the beasts do wel behold and se. May deme with ease wherefore here made they be Withe borders wherein............ 4 brothers' names who list serche the grovnd. We can see it in a Soseki work named "The tower of London". Thank you very much in advance :D 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Lykeio Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4245 days ago 120 posts - 357 votes | Message 2 of 9 14 June 2013 at 11:58am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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You that the beasts do well behold and see, may deem with ease, why they here made,
with borders, blah blah blah. It's hard to translation this into modern English...because it essentially is modern English. Sorry I'm not seeing where you're getting problems, being a native speaker (I presume?). Yow = spelling mistake? eitherwise a common variant for "you" singular still in use in the midlands. Either way the glove fits. Wherefore = Why. Deme = deem, to judge, perceive, reckon, claim, judge or name. Though indeed deme is the middle English form I think. I'm sorry, could you explain your difficulties? It seems really transparent to me. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Jenne:) Tetraglot Newbie Netherlands polyglotquest.wordpr Joined 4468 days ago 38 posts - 56 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German, French Studies: Norwegian | Message 3 of 9 14 June 2013 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Are you having problems with the word order, perhaps? I thought this could be it because it differs from Modern English word order. The first sentence has the order subject object verb and the second sentence verb verb subject (the subject of the main clause is the one in the first sentence). Does this help you? Edited by Jenne:) on 14 June 2013 at 12:27pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| espejismo Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5052 days ago 498 posts - 905 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Spanish, Greek, Azerbaijani | Message 4 of 9 14 June 2013 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Context always helps. Originally, this text appeared as an inscription on the walls of the Beauchamp Tower,
part of the Tower of London complex. It was engraved by John Dudley, who was imprioned there for high treason in 1553 for trying to enthrone Lady Jane Gray. 
"You that these beasts do well behold and see, may dem with ease wherefore here made they be, with borders eke within [there may be found] 4 brothers names who list to search the ground." The addition of the missing words makes the text easier to understand. More info can be found on the Historic Royal Palaces website Edited by espejismo on 14 June 2013 at 5:05pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| zerrubabbel Senior Member United States Joined 4601 days ago 232 posts - 287 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Mandarin | Message 5 of 9 14 June 2013 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, native Modern English speaker... the problem comes from the fact that these words really dont have definition to me, for instance, yow and deme I maybe could guess their meaning by the way they sound, but I would never have gotten wherefore... and "4 brothers names who list search the ground" ... just no idea ... I guess the way I experience it is like the first time a native English speaker might look at Spanish... maybe youre familiar with some words already, but it will take more exposure before you can understand. but Thanks for the help And thanks for the link epssejismo ^.^ the context does help, a lot ^.^ Edited by zerrubabbel on 14 June 2013 at 6:36pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| espejismo Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5052 days ago 498 posts - 905 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Spanish, Greek, Azerbaijani | Message 6 of 9 14 June 2013 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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"With borders eke within [there may be found]/ 4 brothers names" can possibly mean that you can find the names of the "four brothers" within the border of the engraving, represented by the different flowers in each corner. John Dudley had four brothers who were also imprisoned in the same tower. Google is great, isn't it? ;)
You're right, the meaning in not transparent here at all. It's possible to translate the strange words--eke is 'also;' list can mean 'desire,' 'want', or 'choose'--but what meaning did their author try to convey? Were the following lines erased, just like the second part of line three? They probably included, or were meant to include, some important information that would make the meaning clearer. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Spanky Senior Member Canada Joined 5957 days ago 1021 posts - 1714 votes Studies: French | Message 7 of 9 14 June 2013 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
"Yow" – nope, not a typo (or more properly, not a chisel-slip): “yow” is appropriate middle and early modern English and is what is set out on the piece in question, courtesy of the photo supplied by epejismo (though the text in that link from is not strictly speaking what was originally set out as it inconsistently modernizes some of the text). I am not sure offhand (and am far too lazy to look up) whether “yow” was used for singular or plural second person, or both singular and plural.
“eitherwise” – neither middle nor modern English, but I like it and plan on adopting it!
I am a native English speaker as well, and in university read a modest amount of original middle English literature, but I am not entirely sure what is meant by part of the inscription. Specifically, while I believe I may know, I was not 100% sure what is meant by “list to serche the grovnds” in this context. I see espejismo's comments re: the wider meaning of "list" and that is helpful. Edited by Spanky on 14 June 2013 at 8:49pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zireael Triglot Senior Member Poland Joined 4652 days ago 518 posts - 636 votes Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, Spanish Studies: German, Sign Language, Tok Pisin, Arabic (Yemeni), Old English | Message 8 of 9 14 June 2013 at 9:09pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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'Eitherwise' sounds an awful lot like the 'Anglish' I saw on the net (what would English would look like today without Norman influence)
About the text: I've had 3 years of Old/Middle English courses and was completely stumped on the last line, before seeing the pic. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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