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Portuguese -ra Plusquamperfeito | ||
Tags: Verbs/Conjugation | Portuguese | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4291 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 1 of 11 26 August 2013 at 5:55am | IP Logged | ||
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I know that in Spanish, there exists the -ra pluscuamperfecto, which is actually used
more as the imperfecto de subjuntivo there, but that its equivalent in Portuguese exists as well, i.e. plusquamperfeito de forma -ra: falar -> eu falara dizer -> tu disseras ser -> ele/ela fora ter -> nós tiveramos trabalhar -> vós trabalharais acontecer -> vocês/eles/elas aconteceram Can one use this in speech, or is this form relegated to written texts, essays, dissertations, etc., like in Spanish? Edited by 1e4e6 on 26 August 2013 at 5:57am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| labujía Diglot Newbie United Kingdom Joined 4195 days ago 11 posts - 13 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese | Message 2 of 11 26 August 2013 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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As far as I know, that version of the pluperfect in Portuguese is more of a literary
thing. In Spanish, it's used a lot more (as the imperfect subjunctive) and certainly in my school, we were taught to use that subjunctive, although we needed to recognise the '-se' one. Of course, I decided to be completely different and started to use the '-se' one exclusively. Supposedly the latter is the more 'old-fashioned' one, but both are used a lot; for a native speaker, I think that it's a matter of personal preference. Edited by labujía on 26 August 2013 at 1:24pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| MarcoLeal Groupie Portugal Joined 4835 days ago 58 posts - 104 votes Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 3 of 11 26 August 2013 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | ||
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Wow, yet another topic about Portuguese by 1e4e6. Somebody is really committed, I see. Keep it up and you'll be fluent in no time.
On topic: First of all, although the word Plusquamperfeito does exist and does refer to that verb tense, in practice the term mais-que-perfeito (which is just the portuguese translation of plusquamperfeito) is normally used to refer to it. But you're right. The tense is used only in literary speech, and a quite formal one at that. You will not find it in colloquial speech at all. One final correction: Vocês aconteceram doesn't really make sense. I understand that you were just trying to show how the 3rd person plural conjugation for that tense would look like but keep in mind that acontecer is a verb whose subject has to be an event of some sort. So saying something like Vocês aconteceram is like saying "You happened/took place" in English, which would imply you were talking to an event... 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| fabriciocarraro Hexaglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Brazil russoparabrasileirosRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4716 days ago 989 posts - 1454 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, EnglishB2, Italian, Spanish, Russian, French Studies: Dutch, German, Japanese | Message 4 of 11 26 August 2013 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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Just like MarcoLeal said, you'll never ever hear the mais-que-perfeito in the spoken language, but it's reaaaaaaally common in literature, The good thing is that it's usually really easy, so you won't have any trouble learning it.
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| simonov Senior Member Portugal Joined 5590 days ago 222 posts - 438 votes Speaks: English | Message 5 of 11 26 August 2013 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | ||
The Spanish -ra form is imperfecto de subjuntivo, just like the -se form, and not pluscuamperfecto. In Portuguese however, the -ra form is mais-que-perfeito, not imperfeito do conjuntivo [which ends in -sse]. I know it is mostly literary, but I've heard it used, in normal speech, and that's how I learnt it. I did find it weird that a form I knew as subjunctive from Spanish should be used as indicative in Portuguese. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Flarioca Heptaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5883 days ago 635 posts - 816 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Catalan, Mandarin | Message 6 of 11 26 August 2013 at 10:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'd like to add that the "mais-que-perfeito" simples isn't common in the spoken language, because the form with an auxiliary verb is preferred.
Instead of saying "ele saíra quando eu entrei" we say "ele tinha (havia) saído quando eu entrei". Edited by Flarioca on 26 August 2013 at 10:18pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4291 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 7 of 11 26 August 2013 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | ||
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As far as I know, the Spanish pluscuamperfecto in medieval/middle era language was the
modern -ra form of the imperfecto de subjuntivo. The imperfecto de subjuntivo in Spanish used to have only one form, the -se form, like Portuguese. But for some reason, in Spanish they took the old pluscuamperfecto form (pudiera, comiera, dijera) and added it as a second form to the imperfecto de subjuntivo (I use the -se form exclusively like Marco, because it reminds me more of the Latin form and the Portuguese, Italian forms, and the infrequently used French subjonctif imparfait). But returning to the -ra in Portuguese, I suppose this phenomenom occurred to an extent, that the old/medieval mais-que-perfeito (thanks for correcting) was superceded by the form haver + participo passado, and then even further into ter + participo passado. But I actually have heard both this -ra form in spoken speech in both Portuguese and Spanish, especially political speeches. It usually was something like this, pretend someone gives a speech: "Aqui encontramo-nos no sitio onde comeramos com o comité" Using the mais-que-perfeito without -ra I think this is how it goes: "Aqui encontramo-nos no sitio onde haviamos comido com o comité" ou "Aqui encontramo-nos no sitio onde tinhamos comido com o comité" 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 8 of 11 27 August 2013 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | ||
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This form is never heard in Brazilian speech.
if we were to compare Eu já pegara (obsolete in speech, used by some people in formal writing) Eu já havia pego (used by some people in informal speech and by many people in writing)* Eu já tinha pego (neutral form, it can be used from the most informal speech to the most formal writing) Some -ra forms became fixed expressions, losing their past-perfectness: tomara! = I wish! (tomara que ela vá lá = I wish she would go there) pudera! = no wonder! --- * with some verbs HAVIA +pp is more common than TINHA+pp in writing, for example google search (restricted to Brazilian sites), gives ''tinha dito'' 256,000 ''havia dito'' 553,000 It's because many people find past perfect with haver more elegant in writing (haver is not normally used in other compound tenses except for the pluperfect). Edited by Medulin on 27 August 2013 at 5:35pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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