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French--past participles modified/gender | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Spinchäeb Ape Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 4471 days ago 146 posts - 180 votes  Speaks: English*, German | Message 1 of 8 08 September 2013 at 4:23am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I wrote the following sentence in French (said to a woman):
A French native corrected it as follows:
She added the e to the past participle "vu" because the sentence is spoken to a woman rather than to a man. So in a Language 8 dialogue that I wrote, one of the lines was as follows:
I was quite confident that “vue” was the right past participle since the person referred to, Annette, was a woman. However, the French person corrected the sentence by changing the PP to “vu”. His explanation was as follows:
If that's the case, shouldn't the other sentence also have used “vu”, as in?:
The auxiliary verb was “avoir,” not “être.” And I understand sometimes past participles also get modified for the use of plural nouns. Arg. I'm finding this aspect of French grammar difficult. Did each French person accurately correct me? Or was one of them wrong? And is there a page that explains the issue of modified past participles once and for all? I searched around at about.com and found this: http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/pastparticiple.htm However, it doesn't seem to cover this issue. If anyone knows of a link where it's explained fully, I would greatly appreciate seeing it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Tsopivo Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4472 days ago 258 posts - 411 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Esperanto | Message 2 of 8 08 September 2013 at 8:13am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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They are both correct.
The rule is as follows : - with the auxiliary "être", the participe passé agrees in gender and number with the subject (e.g. "je suis fatiguée"); - with the auxiliary "avoir", the participe passé agrees in gender and number with the COD (direct object complement*) when the COD is placed before the verb. So : Je vous (Annette) ai vue la semaine dernière -> vous is the COD (it answers to the question J'ai vu qui ?) and it is before the verb (ai vu) so the participe passé agrees in gender with "vous" (Annette) -> je vous ai vue. But : J'ai vu Annette la semaine dernière -> Annette is the COD (it answers to the question J'ai vu qui ?) but it is now placed after the verb (ai vu) so the participe passé does not agree with anything -> J'ai vu Annette. I do not have time to look for a link but there was a page about that topic on the website you mention : http://french.about.com/library/weekly/bl-agreement-cv.htm. I don't know how well you read French but here is what the Académie Française says about this subject : http://www.academie-francaise.fr/la-langue-francaise/questio ns-de-langue#63_strong-em-participe-pass-accord-em-strong. Note that this is just a rule; there are some exceptions otherwise, it would not really be French ;-) However, the exceptions are rare enough that you should not bother yourself with them before you are quite advanced. In fact, I ignored a lot of them myself. * A complement d'objet is the object or the person on which the subject acts. It is the answer to the question : Subject performed said action on who or what (COI) ? / Subject verb who or what (COD) ? For instance : (1) J'ai vu qui ? vous. (2) Tu as vu qui ? Annette. It is direct when there is no preposition between the verb and the object. It is indirect when there is a preposition before the object. For instance, in : J'ai donné un cadeau à ma mère. "Un cadeau" is the COD (direct object complement) and "ma mère" is the COI (indirect object complement) as it is preceded by "à". Edited by Tsopivo on 08 September 2013 at 8:21am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Spinchäeb Ape Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 4471 days ago 146 posts - 180 votes Speaks: English*, German | Message 3 of 8 10 September 2013 at 8:51am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Thanks for your help. I've saved your explanation and will review it and practice sentences so that I can get these intricate details of French grammar down.
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| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 4 of 8 10 September 2013 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Tsopivo provided the rule. The only way to shorten it for mnemonic purposes would be something like:
-with être, pp agrees like an adjective; -with avoir, pp agrees with a direct object that precedes it. An "exception" to this (there are a few others) is pronominal verbs. Consider the following: elle s'est brossé les dents In reality, the "avoir" rule applies: since the direct object of brosser is "les dents" and it follows the verb, there is no agreement. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| ScottScheule Diglot Senior Member United States scheule.blogspot.com Joined 5229 days ago 645 posts - 1176 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Latin, Hungarian, Biblical Hebrew, Old English, Russian, Swedish, German, Italian, French | Message 5 of 8 10 September 2013 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
It's much the same, but I learned this rule as: With pronominal verbs, if the reflexive pronoun is the indirect object (as is the case with your sentence), there is no agreement. If the reflexive pronoun is the direct object, then there is agreement. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 6 of 8 10 September 2013 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
"Les vêtements que je me suis achetés n'étaient pas chers." As you can see, there is agreement when the direct object precedes. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| ScottScheule Diglot Senior Member United States scheule.blogspot.com Joined 5229 days ago 645 posts - 1176 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Latin, Hungarian, Biblical Hebrew, Old English, Russian, Swedish, German, Italian, French | Message 7 of 8 10 September 2013 at 7:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Apologies, I worded that poorly.
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| Homogenik Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4825 days ago 314 posts - 407 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Polish, Mandarin | Message 8 of 8 11 September 2013 at 3:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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It is important to get this rule right, but I wouldn't feel too self-conscious about it since many natives constantly
make mistakes with this, especially pronominal verbs and with avoir! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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