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New course: Le québécois en 10 leçons | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5380 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 153 of 167 18 November 2012 at 4:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Reading the Wikipedia entry, it appears that the feminine form is "chiacque". I'd never
seen that before. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 154 of 167 18 November 2012 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Just to change the subject a bit, I want to draw the attention of people interested in Québécois culture to a board game called Switch Switch - Le Scorpion masqué that I thoroughly enjoyed playing last night. This an Québécois adaptation of a French game called Contrario.
The website explains how the game works, but I forewarn readers that unless you are a native speaker of French and steeped in Québécois culture, the game is nearly impossible to play. The whole thing got me thinking about how Québécois culture can be encoded in totally standard Québécois French that can co-exist with the vernacular. I also know that some readers here are concerned about raising the status of Québécois French in the French-speaking world. A product like this should go a long way in this direction. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| lecavaleur Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4776 days ago 146 posts - 295 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish | Message 155 of 167 15 December 2012 at 1:38am | IP Logged | |||||
I'm not totally in agreement with this. First off, your comparisons don't work. For example, the national language of the United States is English (more specifically, American English). There is no such language as "American", and most Americans would find it pretty insulting if they were told that they weren't speaking English, but "American". The standard way of referring to national varieties of languages is to put the national adjective next to the original name of the language. Thus, we have American English, Australian English, Austrian German, Belgian French, Brazillian Portuguese, Mexican Spanish, etc... "Québécois" is not a language, it's a nationality. The national language of Quebec is French, more specifically, le français québécois. This national variety of French, as all national varieties do, has its own subset of registers and a vast collection of unique expressions and terms. That doesn't make it a language unto itself, and to brand it as such is dishonest. I also feel like it robs Quebeckers of their « appartenance » to the Francophonie and further marginalizes the French language in Canada. Too many people in Quebec (and in the ROC) think of French as though it were some kind of backwater dialect, as if Quebeckers weren't speaking a language they share with hundreds of millions of other people around the world (albeit in their own variety). Re-branding Quebec French as a separate language only intensifies this poor minority reflex.
That was my exact reaction when reading the dialogue. I mean, kudos to Arekkusu for producing this, but the dialogue was jam-packed with every stereotype in the book. I hope he saved a few for the later chapters! I can almost guarantee anyone who were to visit Quebec and attempt to use some of these expressions and pronunciations that he will probably be laughed at. I can vouch for this because I have a funny story of my own which resembles this experience. I've lived my whole adult life in Québec, but there was a time, before I moved here, when I came to Montreal on vacation from my home country. I spoke French already at an advanced level, and I remembered from my school days some Quebec vocabulary we had learned from our textbooks. Specifically, I remembered the menu where one could read "hambourgeois" instead of "hamburger". So, in a restaurant somwhere near St-Denis and Laurier, I proudly ordered a "hambourgeois" and.... The waiter laughed at me! LOL! And he said "Un hambourgeois? C'est donc ben québécois, ça !" And he continued laughing. This is the kind of thing that awaits the poor soul who visits Quebec and goes around saying "moé" instead of "moi". I assure anyone of that. Edited by lecavaleur on 15 December 2012 at 1:41am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 156 of 167 15 December 2012 at 7:35am | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, it is gratifying to see that I'm not the only one who thinks that the book in question misrepresents the language spoken in Quebec. But I don't want to reopen that nasty debate.
What I want to look at is the question of what to call national varieties of languages that are spoken in different countries. Sure one sees American English more often than American and Brazilian Portuguese more often than Brazilian, etc. But let me first point out that H.L. Mencken wrote the book The American Language. And we know that when Americans talk about speaking English, they are talking about American English. And we known that many French translations of American literature will say "Traduit de l'américain." Now when we talk about the varieties of English, we also talk about British English. Nobody really says English English. So we can say that all the national varieties of English are basically equal. The problem with French, is that there is a distinct social hierarchy that is reflected in the words used for the varieties. Sure there is le français québécois, le français suisse, le français belge, etc. but what about the French of France? Is it le français français, le français hexagonal, le français de France, le franco-français? In fact, it's just le français. Therein lies the problem. French is the language of France. Despite all the posturing and speeches about la francophonie, French is the language of France. All the other forms of French are regional varieties. Here is an important detail. Totally unlike the Spanish academy, the Académie française is composed of 40 French citizens by law. There have never been any Québécois members and never will be unless the law is changed. In this thread the main point of my argument was not really about calling Quebec French Le québécois. I would be just as happy with Le français québécois. What I took offense to was the author of the book in question saying that this was a guide to Le québécois. I felt that in the author's mind there was Le français and Le québécois, the latter just being a new name for joual. Thus I suggested that if one is going to use the term Le québécois in the title of the book, at least add the adjective "populaire." As the thread has shown, this suggestion was greeted with great scorn, derision and insults. Edited by s_allard on 15 December 2012 at 4:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5380 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 157 of 167 23 December 2012 at 12:16am | IP Logged | |||||
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Until the end of the year only, I am offering a special offer for HTLAL members
only: I'm offering the pdf version of my book at $15 (through Paypal). Just PM me. Details on the book can be found here on Lulu. Edited by Arekkusu on 23 December 2012 at 2:23am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| alang Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7220 days ago 563 posts - 757 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 158 of 167 23 December 2012 at 1:29am | IP Logged | |||||
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I clicked on the link, and the site indicates they do not have the product? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4664 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 159 of 167 23 December 2012 at 1:48am | IP Logged | |||||
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The forum software seems to have broken the link. Just use the "copy link address"
function on your browser, and delete the space to go to the right address. Edited by tastyonions on 23 December 2012 at 2:26am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| alang Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7220 days ago 563 posts - 757 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 160 of 167 23 December 2012 at 2:00am | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks tastyonions. I thought the quick click was accurate, but I should pay better attention. You have my useful vote. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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