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French -- prendre, past participle | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Spinchäeb Ape Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 4471 days ago 146 posts - 180 votes  Speaks: English*, German | Message 1 of 15 11 July 2013 at 4:34am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I wrote a story for Language 8, that web site where you write something and a native
speaker corrects you and then you return the favor for someone who has written in your native language. I started the story by writing:
The French person correct this as:
Why did he add the “es” to prendre's past participle? I checked on conjugation sites to verify that “pris” is indeed the correct past participle. However, Google Translate did it exactly like the person did. I suspect he's right. I just don't know why. I was using the passé composé tense. Do past participles in French change sometimes under certain circumstances? In my next sentence, I wrote:
It was corrected as:
This time the past participle “pris” held up. What gives? I was using the passé composé each time, and the word “photos' is plural each time. I think the native speaker is likely correct, so what am I missing? There is one thing I think the person may have missed, however. Shouldn't there have been an upward accent mark in the E in the French expression for United States, as in: États-Unis? Edited by Spinchäeb Ape on 11 July 2013 at 4:35am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Sizen Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4340 days ago 165 posts - 347 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Catalan, Spanish, Japanese, Ukrainian, German | Message 2 of 15 11 July 2013 at 6:25am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Past participles with 'avoir' agree with their direct objects in number and gender only when the object comes
before the verb. 'Deux photos' is the direct object of 'j'ai pris', passing through 'que', and since 'les photos' comes before 'j'ai pris' and is feminin and plural, we add an 'e' for feminin, an 's' for plural and write/say 'Voici deux photos que j'ai prises'. In your second sentence, 'les photos' proceeds the verb, so there is no need to change your participle. We would also change 'pris' if we said 'je les ai prises', 'les' standing in for 'les photos', but never for 'J'ai pris des photos' since the object comes after the verb. This applies to other past participles as well and there are 4 variants for most: écouté, écoutés, écoutée, écoutées, vu, vue, vus, vues, sorti, sortie, sortis, sorties ('pris' can be both singular and plural since it already ends with an 's'). And yes, you can create links of 3 'e's this way and it's completely fine: créée. As for the accent on États-Unis, you don't necessarily have to accent capitalized letters in French. It's pretty much your choice. 10 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| lorinth Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 4275 days ago 443 posts - 581 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish, Latin Studies: Mandarin, Finnish | Message 3 of 15 11 July 2013 at 10:38am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Spinchäeb Ape, I'd like to reassure you: many French speakers and virtually all
kids make such "mistakes" with the agreement of past participles and the "avoir" auxiliary. When a mistake is common enough, it becomes the new rule but for the time being generations after generations of children sweat over these rules at school, so don't be ashamed if you find it hard. As for the accents on capitals, they were not written when we used typewriters. It was just not possible. Nowadays, with computers, we do write - most often - accents on capitals, though you might see unaccented capitals from time to time. But in certain cases, it can create ambiguities or it can be difficult to read. See here for more explanations and funny examples of such ambiguities. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 4 of 15 11 July 2013 at 10:53am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Yeah, the participle accords with the object if the COD is placed before the verb in a
sentence (either a pronoun or in a sentence with "que") 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| anime Triglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6361 days ago 161 posts - 207 votes Speaks: Spanish, Swedish*, English Studies: German, Portuguese, French, Russian | Message 5 of 15 11 July 2013 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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wouldn't going from pris to prises also change pronunciation from [pri] to [priz]?
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| lorinth Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 4275 days ago 443 posts - 581 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish, Latin Studies: Mandarin, Finnish | Message 6 of 15 11 July 2013 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Yes. It's easier to understand the rule if you pick a verb like "prendre", which has different forms for the past participle, both in speaking and in writing. With the majority of verbs, including those of the first group (manger, chanter, jouer...), the feminine is a purely written form. The pronunciation is not affected (at least in standard French): in "la pomme que j'ai mangée" and "le pain que j'ai mangé", the pronunciation of the past participles is identical, which makes it harder to introduce a difference while writing. However, with a minority of verb like "prendre", there's a difference in speaking and in writing [NB: I would argue that you *do* frequently hear things like "les photos que j'ai pris" and that it is also a rule that many kids learn at school as far as speech is concerned, not only writing]. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| anime Triglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6361 days ago 161 posts - 207 votes Speaks: Spanish, Swedish*, English Studies: German, Portuguese, French, Russian | Message 7 of 15 12 July 2013 at 1:59am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Okey this definitely seems like one of the hardest aspects of French language. Will you sound like an idiot if
you say pris instead of prises or will you be forgiven? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Sizen Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4340 days ago 165 posts - 347 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Catalan, Spanish, Japanese, Ukrainian, German | Message 8 of 15 12 July 2013 at 5:24am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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It's on the same level as any other gender mistake in my opinion. It might be a bit
like not pronouncing the 's' for a possessive or a plural in English in the sense that people will notice but won't really care unless it somehow creates confusion as to what is being talked about. Well, that's the case for foreigners, at least. For speech, I don't see it as that big of a problem unless you intend to take your French to a high level. Then it's something you should be paying attention to. It's not too hard, though. It's already been mentioned, but most past participles aren't changed phonetically even with 'e's and 's's added on. The ones that do change become somewhat of a habit since certain words often turn up with the same verbs. Eventually, you'll take enough photos that saying 'c'est moi qui les ai prises' will come out naturally. So really, you might as well put the effort in. People will be pleased to see that you've taken the time to learn their language down to the finest of details. In writing, however, it's a good idea to get used to making these kind of gender agreements. It's pretty noticeable and even I raise my eyebrow a bit when I see an obvious mistake (which is not to say that I don't make mistakes). Make it a habit of checking the location (in reference to the verb), the gender and number of your direct objects when working with past participles using 'avoir'. I guess if you don't intend to use French outside of texting/chatting online, then it doesn't really make a difference for writing though. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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