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pfn123
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5084 days ago
171 posts - 291 votes 
Speaks: English*
| Message 34 of 51 01 May 2011 at 2:37pm | IP Logged |
paranday wrote:
| Heck, I'd like your autograph. |
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Hahaha, in English or Volapük? lol... I'm blushing.
paranday wrote:
| Volapükians are rare around here; will follow your log. |
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Good to know. I hope you enjoy it :D
1 person has voted this message useful
| Cabaire
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 5600 days ago
725 posts - 1352 votes
| Message 35 of 51 02 May 2011 at 9:31am | IP Logged |
Studob-li ko pükiflens
Do you think, pükiflens is the right word composition?
Isn't it "friends of language", i.e. Genitive? I would say pükaflens like volapük "language of the world". I guess, in 95% of the cases -a- is the joint vowel.
To decide, if -a- or -i- is the right joint vowel, you have to decompose the nominal expression to a verbal expression.
Example:
God löfom obis "God loves us", therefore löf Goda or Godalöf
but
obs Godi löfobs "we love God", therefore Godilöf
Sometimes you have an adverbial -o, like in gitokred "orthodoxy", because you "believe" (kred) "rightly, according to the law" (git)
Or what is your opinion?
1 person has voted this message useful
| aldous
Diglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 5243 days ago
73 posts - 174 votes
Speaks: English*, French
| Message 36 of 51 07 May 2011 at 2:42am | IP Logged |
pfn123 wrote:
GRAMMAR: I think the grammar is more complicated than it needs to be. For example, the verb in Volapük is quite tricky, compared with other IALs such as Esperanto or Ido. However, it is regular. So, although there are more forms (perfect, pluperfect, preterite, and so on), once one has learnt the forms, all verbs can be regularly conjugated. It was this regularity, I'm sure, that helped it become so successful.
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I'm surprised to hear that. I got the impression the Volapük verb is about the same as the Esperanto verb in complexity -- the difference being that Esperanto uses a lot of auxiliary verbs and participles to convey various shades of meaning, whereas Volapük has those shades built into the affixes.
Could it be the verb seems more complex because the book you're using presented all the forms at once? Esperanto books that I've seen just give you the basic tenses early on, and don't teach you the other forms until later. If someone were to publish a Volapük instructional book today, they might want to do the same thing.
1 person has voted this message useful
| Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 6440 days ago
4474 posts - 6726 votes
Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese
| Message 37 of 51 07 May 2011 at 8:28am | IP Logged |
aldous wrote:
pfn123 wrote:
GRAMMAR: I think the grammar is more complicated than it needs to be. For example, the verb in Volapük is quite tricky, compared with other IALs such as Esperanto or Ido. However, it is regular. So, although there are more forms (perfect, pluperfect, preterite, and so on), once one has learnt the forms, all verbs can be regularly conjugated. It was this regularity, I'm sure, that helped it become so successful.
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I'm surprised to hear that. I got the impression the Volapük verb is about the same as the Esperanto verb in complexity -- the difference being that Esperanto uses a lot of auxiliary verbs and participles to convey various shades of meaning, whereas Volapük has those shades built into the affixes.
Could it be the verb seems more complex because the book you're using presented all the forms at once? Esperanto books that I've seen just give you the basic tenses early on, and don't teach you the other forms until later. If someone were to publish a Volapük instructional book today, they might want to do the same thing. |
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Where did you get that idea about Esperanto auxiliary verbs? Can you give an example of what you mean?
1 person has voted this message useful
| pfn123
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5084 days ago
171 posts - 291 votes
Speaks: English*
| Message 38 of 51 07 May 2011 at 10:37am | IP Logged |
Cabaire wrote:
Studob-li ko p�kiflens
Do you think, p�kiflens is the right word composition? |
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Actually, I'm not sure. I used the word 'pükistudan' as my analogy.
Cabaire wrote:
Isn't it "friends of language", i.e. Genitive? I would say p�kaflens like volap�k "language of the world". I guess, in 95% of the cases -a- is the joint vowel.
To decide, if -a- or -i- is the right joint vowel, you have to decompose the nominal expression to a verbal expression.
Example:
God l�fom obis "God loves us", therefore l�f Goda or Godal�f
but
obs Godi l�fobs "we love God", therefore Godil�f
Sometimes you have an adverbial -o, like in gitokred "orthodoxy", because you "believe" (kred) "rightly, according to the law" (git)
Or what is your opinion? |
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Wow, very useful advice. Thank you. It seems you have a sound knowledge of Volapük grammar. Thanks for the help! :D
(P.S. Your diacritics aren't showing)
1 person has voted this message useful
| pfn123
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5084 days ago
171 posts - 291 votes
Speaks: English*
| Message 39 of 51 07 May 2011 at 10:45am | IP Logged |
aldous wrote:
pfn123 wrote:
GRAMMAR: I think the grammar is more complicated than it needs to be. For example, the verb in Volapük is quite tricky, compared with other IALs such as Esperanto or Ido. However, it is regular. So, although there are more forms (perfect, pluperfect, preterite, and so on), once one has learnt the forms, all verbs can be regularly conjugated. It was this regularity, I'm sure, that helped it become so successful.
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I'm surprised to hear that. I got the impression the Volapük verb is about the same as the Esperanto verb in complexity -- the difference being that Esperanto uses a lot of auxiliary verbs and participles to convey various shades of meaning, whereas Volapük has those shades built into the affixes. |
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I think the Esperanto verb is simpler, although we could also say that that the Volapük verb is subtler, it depends how one looks at it. In Volapük, there are various forms of past tense, even past-future and so on. Esperanto has -inta/-ita, and even there, one usully tries just to stick to -is where possible. There are, on the whole, more forms in Volapük.
aldous wrote:
| Could it be the verb seems more complex because the book you're using presented all the forms at once? Esperanto books that I've seen just give you the basic tenses early on, and don't teach you the other forms until later. If someone were to publish a Volapük instructional book today, they might want to do the same thing. |
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That could be partly it, yes. But still, I think that comparing the two as systems, Esperanto is easier to grasp. But, having said that, Volapük is more regular than any natural language, and so although compared to Esperanto, or Ido, it's relatively complex, it is on the whole a very simple system itself.
1 person has voted this message useful
| pfn123
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5084 days ago
171 posts - 291 votes
Speaks: English*
| Message 40 of 51 07 May 2011 at 11:19am | IP Logged |
Volte wrote:
aldous wrote:
pfn123 wrote:
GRAMMAR: I think the grammar is more complicated than it needs to be. For example, the verb in Volapük is quite tricky, compared with other IALs such as Esperanto or Ido. However, it is regular. So, although there are more forms (perfect, pluperfect, preterite, and so on), once one has learnt the forms, all verbs can be regularly conjugated. It was this regularity, I'm sure, that helped it become so successful.
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I'm surprised to hear that. I got the impression the Volapük verb is about the same as the Esperanto verb in complexity -- the difference being that Esperanto uses a lot of auxiliary verbs and participles to convey various shades of meaning, whereas Volapük has those shades built into the affixes.
Could it be the verb seems more complex because the book you're using presented all the forms at once? Esperanto books that I've seen just give you the basic tenses early on, and don't teach you the other forms until later. If someone were to publish a Volapük instructional book today, they might want to do the same thing. |
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Where did you get that idea about Esperanto auxiliary verbs? Can you give an example of what you mean?
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I can't speak for Aldous, but I think what he meant using 'esti' with the participles, for example: 'La viro estas falonta'.
1 person has voted this message useful
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