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Burton in Volapükistan | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| pfn123 Senior Member Australia Joined 5084 days ago 171 posts - 291 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 41 of 51 07 May 2011 at 11:22am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Well, another busy week. I don't feel I accomplished as much this week as I did last week, but still, I made sure I did at least some study every morning and evening.
After learning the basic words and forms in the first week, the next stage Burton outlines is to read a text and learn the words. He did it by underlining. As I don't have any Volapük books, I have made do with making lists (actually, even if I had a book, I could not comply, as I hate to mark my books). Underlining or lists, I think the main thing is to learn the words, and to read the language without worrying too much about the exact meaning (grammatical detail is the next stage). At school I was taught that one should learn grammar and vocabulary at an even pace – now a little grammar, now a few words, increasing the two together, as if grammar were one foot, and vocabulary the other. One foot, then the other, and that is how we walk. But Burton seems to advocate hopping before we walk. My vocabulary is expanding faster than my knowledge of grammar. For this reason, I have not posted another composition yet. I am not neglecting grammatical studies. I still read the explanations of grammatical points, but I don't worry too much about learning them by heart. I learn to recognise them, and find that they show up in my reading. Time will tell if Burton's method will send me hopping, or just hopping mad... Reading is very important. I read everyday, and I do so out loud. This is helping me to adjust to the sounds and the 'feel' of the language. So, in the coming week, I'll go on learning words, reading aloud, and then reading some more. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| aldous Diglot Groupie United States Joined 5243 days ago 73 posts - 174 votes Speaks: English*, French | Message 42 of 51 07 May 2011 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
That is indeed what I meant. It was misleading of me to write "a lot of auxiliary verbs". There's only one auxiliary verb. I meant to say that Esperanto uses the auxiliary verb a lot. Here's what I'm talking about. Esperanto has three basic tenses (past, present, and future), but Esperanto also has imperfect, pluperfect and future perfect forms, just like Volapük (at least in the indicative). Indicative active logom = li vidas älogom = li estis vidanta elogom = li vidis (aǔ li estas vidinta) ilogom = li estis vidinta ologom = li vidos ulogom = li estos vidinta Indicative passive palogom = li estas vidata pälogom = li estis vidata pelogom = li estas vidita pilogom = li estis vidita pologom = li estos vidata pulogom = li estos vidita Conditional active logomöv = li vidus älogomöv elogomöv = li estus vidinta ilogomöv ologomöv = li estus vidonta ulogomöv Conditional passive palogomöv = li vidus pälogomöv pelogomöv = li estus vidita pilogomöv pologomöv = li estus vidota pulogomöv Imperative active logomöd = li vidu älogomöd elogomöd = li estu vidinta ilogomöd ologomöd = li estu vidonta ulogomöd Imperative passive palogomöd = li estu vidata pälogomöd pelogomöd = li estu vidita pilogomöd pologomöd = li estu vidota pulogomöd Infinitive active logön = vidi älogön elogön = esti vidinta ilogön ologön = esti vidonta ulogön Anyway, you get the idea. There are a few more verb moods I could lay out, but it's getting tedious. Volapük and Esperanto both also have participial forms that change for person, tense, and voice. Volapük had a continual form that Esperanto may lack (at least in the classical Volapük; this was abolished in the reforms of the 1930s). They both also make verbs reflexive by use of a reflexive pronoun that inflects for number and case. The two languages seem to have some differences in what is possible. Volapük has a subjunctive mood (logob-la, älogob-la, etc.). I haven't come across any reference to a subjunctive in Esperanto. On the other hand, Esperanto has some tenses that Volapük doesn't have, as far as I can tell, like the future progressive (li estos vidanta) and the past, present, and future periphrastic (li estis vidonta, li estas vidonta, li estos vidonta). Having done this exercise, I am inclined to agree that the Volapük verb is a little more involved, but the tables I created above are incomplete. I think you couldn't really say for sure which verb system is more complex until you created a complete set of tables with all the forms in both languages and see which language has fewer gaps. The fact that Volapük has a subjunctive and Esperanto doesn't certainly makes Volapük more complicated for the learner early on. One other thought, at the risk of prolixity: If a language lacks a certain verb form, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a simpler language overall. You still have to convey the subtle shade of meaning, in tense or mood. It's just that you can't learn a straightforward conjugation for it, but instead you have to learn what syntactic or idiomatic construction conveys that shade of meaning in a way that sounds natural. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6440 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 43 of 51 08 May 2011 at 2:04am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
That was exactly the source of my confusion. Thank you for clarifying. For what it's worth, written Esperanto often uses the auxiliary verb quite a bit, but spoken Esperanto rarely does. Spoken Esperanto also makes very light use of the participles. Thank you for the comparative tables; they are informative.
Esperanto has a continual suffix, -ad. It has several meanings, but this is one of them. Esperanto participles do not change for person. They have passive and active forms, and change for tense. It's debatable whether they change for voice; non-indicative participles are controversial. PMEG says to avoid them other than in playful use, while other sources accept or condemn them entirely. The reflexive pronouns do inflect for number and case, in the same way that adjectives and nouns do, by adding -j and -n.
Whether Esperanto has a subjunctive is a matter of debate. Some people analyse certain constructions as subjunctive, generally involving -u.
For the learner who doesn't care about nuances of literature, -is, -as, -os, -i, -us, and -u pretty much suffice in Esperanto, along with passive recognition of the participles and a few fixed words like "volonte". The Esperanto verb does have the rest of the complexities you've mentioned, but only literature, and a small percentage of speakers, tend to use more than the basics. It's perfectly correct Esperanto to use simple forms, rather than the participles with an auxiliary; it just is less specific.
Largely agreed. That said, languages do differ in what degree they force you to convey certain nuances. What is essential to speaking one language correctly can often be subsumed into an unmarked and simpler form in another language, except for when you very specifically want to convey something; sometimes the subtle shade of meaning is unnecessary, or even occasionally unwanted. Details of politeness and of the temporal systems of verbs are often this way. Thank you again; your post was extremely informative, and I learned a bit about Volapük from it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| aldous Diglot Groupie United States Joined 5243 days ago 73 posts - 174 votes Speaks: English*, French | Message 44 of 51 08 May 2011 at 5:03am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
They'd be even more informative if they were accurate. :-) When I wrote the previous post I assumed Volapük allowed each tense for each mood. But I took a closer look at my Volapük grammar (Alfred A. Post, Comprehensive Volapük Grammar, 1890), and for most of the moods it only lists certain tenses. So I think I messed up those tables. I've corrected them below. I've left the indicative forms unchanged. The conditional, imperative, and infinitive tables are shorter and show more overlap between Volapük and Esperanto. Indicative active logom = li vidas älogom = li estis vidanta elogom = li vidis (aǔ li estas vidinta) ilogom = li estis vidinta ologom = li vidos ulogom = li estos vidinta Indicative passive palogom = li estas vidata pälogom = li estis vidata pelogom = li estas vidita pilogom = li estis vidita pologom = li estos vidata pulogom = li estos vidita Conditional active älogomöv = li vidus ilogomöv = li estus vidinta X = li estus vidonta Conditional passive pälogomöv = li estus vidata pilogomöv = li estus vidita X = li estus vidota Imperative active logomöd = li vidu elogomöd = li estu vidinta X = li estu vidonta Imperative passive palogomöd = li estu vidata pelogomöd = li estu vidita X = li estu vidota Infinitive active logön = vidi elogön = esti vidinta ologön = esti vidonta To make this table more complete, the infinitive passive, the subjunctive active and passive, the optative, the impersonal form, and the participles would have to be added. I've put X's where Esperanto has a form that Volapük doesn't (assuming Post's verb tables are complete). Also, I haven't seen a complete grammar of the post-1931 Volapük. I'd be curious to see if any of these tables would be changed in light of it. It's worth mentioning that reformed Volapük (1931) has two more tenses not found in the classical version (finalized 1887). I don't really know either form of the language, but I'm more familiar with classical Volapük and had forgotten about these two until today. These two tenses are the future in the past (ölogom, "he was going to see"), and the future in the past perfect (ülogom, "he was going to have seen").
Quite right. I don't know what I had in mind when I wrote that they do. Volapük participles don't change for person either, just tense (just three tenses, as it happens) and voice.
The same is true in Volapük. Only four of the tenses are for daily use and should be learned early on (present, imperfect, perfect, and future). The other tenses would only show up in literature, assuming it existed. The usage of the subjunctive is very restricted. And some forms just aren't going to come up that much, like the passive imperative.
Well put; I agree. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| pfn123 Senior Member Australia Joined 5084 days ago 171 posts - 291 votes Speaks: English* | Message 45 of 51 07 July 2011 at 2:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Hi. I've been very busy lately, and so I haven't been online much. But I didn't realise HOW long It has been since I posted here last. I just wanted to post a short note to say I haven't fallen off the face of the earth, and I'll post more fully soon (on the weekend I hope). hope you're all having a good week :D Take care.
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| pfn123 Senior Member Australia Joined 5084 days ago 171 posts - 291 votes Speaks: English* | Message 47 of 51 18 September 2011 at 3:52am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Hi. I realised didn’t post my last post here…
Well, this experiment is over, at least for now. And even though it ended a while ago, I just wanted to sum up my final thoughts and close it properly. Well, to the point: In my opinion, this method would be effective in certain circumstances. (1) USING THE LANGUAGE. It’s a method that will get you using the language straight away. To this end, Volapuk was a bad choice. I couldn’t chat to people with, or use it on holiday, etc. So I don’t think this was the right method for learning it. (2) TIME. It’s a very time consuming method. This may not be bad in other circumstances, but not mine. I was fine for the first while, but then I got busy – as happens in life sometimes – with a few things at once. Because this method is really all or nothing, I had to drop it. So, this method would be really good if: someone told me that in one or two months, I had to go to --, and I had to speak the local lingo. Otherwise, better to be the tortoise than the hare. I’m glad I did it. I learnt a lot. Thanks to everyone who helped and followed along. Thank you. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Evertype Tetraglot Newbie Ireland evertype.com Joined 4697 days ago 3 posts - 3 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Danish Studies: Cornish | Message 48 of 51 17 January 2012 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Ah, have you really given up on Volapük—or just the experiment? The Flenef Bevünetik Volapüka now has a proper
domain http://volapük.com Later this year we'll publish Ventürs jiela Lälid in Stunalän, perhaps the longest novel written in Volapük. Edited by Evertype on 17 January 2012 at 1:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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