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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5532 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes  Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 1201 of 1317 02 June 2015 at 6:30pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I've always enjoyed your observations greatly, and the HTLAL community has always been an enormous pleasure.
Well, in my case, one of my colleagues is a native English speaker who's been speaking French on and off since childhood, and who has lived in France for years. Obviously, his French is excellent. So just for the fun of it, I've had some actual working, professional discussions with him in French, and it's not too hard as long as we stay away from deep technical arcana. If I had to do this full time, I'm sure it would be exhausting and frustrating for a while as I filled in vocabulary holes and got into the swing of things. But I'm assuming that if I can already have actual work conversations in French today, that a few months would be enough to get the kinks out and make it real. It does help that my wife and I have been speaking almost exclusively in French for years now. I can do basic casual conversation on autopilot. But it still really would help to have coworkers who talked about the sort of things which appear in CommitStrip.
I've been thinking about this for the last couple of days, and I've decided that: 1. I'm done learning French until I have some interesting new opportunities, but 2. I still want to use it regularly throughout my life. (2) is actually tricky if I'm not in "study mode". In a perfect world, I would have all of the following: 1. A Kindle account on Amazon.fr. (Tricky.) 2. Cable TV, including some interesting high-end channels like Canal+, with DVR functionality. (Might be very tricky.) 3. A paid-up Izneo subscription. 4. A paper subscription to Le canard enchainé and Science et vie. 5. Interesting, up-to-date French podcasts in my car. (Not sure how.) 6. Cool things to read on the web in French. (Got it.) The goal would be to make sure that the French resources are plentiful and inviting, so that I just use them naturally without making an effort. As Khatzumoto once said, it's all about logistics. But to pull this off, I'd need to work out a monthly budget, try some experiments, and set everything up to run on autopilot. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4533 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 1202 of 1317 02 June 2015 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Is there such a difference between "learning" and "using" if you are at a high intermediate level in your L2? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5262 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 1203 of 1317 02 June 2015 at 11:35pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Have you ever thought of getting involved with a French open-source project on the technical end? Granted, it's a volunteer position, so- no pay. Still, it could get you used to working in French with French-speaking colleagues and force you to get by working in French. It would save tutoring money. Also, perhaps you could do some volunteer tech work for a French NGO. Just some thoughts, I don't know how viable they are given the demands of making a living and having a family. This is an interesting discussion. While I still discover something new everyday in my languages, at this point in Spanish and Portuguese, it's more like "polishing" it than actively learning for me. Like emk, I know that if I could spend 6 months to a year in São Paulo, Lisbon, Madrid or Mexico City, my Spanish and Portuguese would polish nicely and rise to meet the new circumstances. That move is not likely going to happen for me. Neither do I have the skills to do volunteer work on an open-source project. Even with all the tools at our disposal, there's only so far you can go with a language when you are not in-country. (English and its ubiquitous nature perhaps being an exception.) I live most of my life in English. I live in an English-speaking place, albeit with a significant Spanish-speaking minority. I work in English (though very occasionally I do get to use my languages- mostly Spanish and once in Kreyòl and Portuguese). My family speaks English. The majority of my friends speak English too. I think that's pretty much the situation for most of us who don't live in a TL country or a multilingual city nor living with an L2 partner. There's only so far one can go with a language given these particular circumstances. "False immersion" can and does go a heck of a long way but it is not the equivalent of true immersion. At this point, for me, as patrickwilken says- using is learning and there's not much difference between the two. I can always improve and that is an ongoing, everyday, process. The good thing is I can read/listen to/watch anything in Spanish and Portuguese. I can travel with ease in the Spanish-speaking/Lusophone world. I have friends who speak both languages natively and it is nice to speak with them, just hanging out like I do in English. It's pretty cool and a lot of fun too, despite the fact that my languages still could use polishing. Edit: while you were away, I found some cool links to share with a lot of French (and Spanish) content to download, free and legal, audio and text- even epubs. Radiobooks Citybooks Edited by iguanamon on 03 June 2015 at 1:46am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5207 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 1204 of 1317 03 June 2015 at 10:40am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Personally I found that recognising and accepting the necessity of "learning" as well as "using" was the most important thing to keep making progress at the high-intermediate/low-advanced stage. For a while I fell into the trap of thinking that I was past the stage where I needed to study, and I'd keep progressing just from input and conversation, but that just kept me on a plateau for a while. Adding back in more learning-oriented activities (e.g., SRS, grammar books, self-talk, tutoring, DuoLingo tests, intensive reading and listening) got me unstuck and continues to keep things moving. Of course one could just as easily get stuck in a plateau from too much learning and not enough use; I've come to believe that both are critical to progress. Of course, if you were living and working/studying in the language, there would probably be a lot more overlap between usage and learning, like in those first few months of picking up technical vocabulary. To an extent, the "learning" activities I mentioned are to compensate for the fact that my "usage" situations aren't frequent enough and don't push me enough. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5476 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 1205 of 1317 03 June 2015 at 11:10am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Great post garyb, all of it makes sense with this one sentence ringing very true. I couldn't agree more- doesn't mean I am currently following this balanced approach but I'm certainly a believer nonetheless 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5532 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 1206 of 1317 03 June 2015 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
French programmers mostly run their open source projects in English, unfortunately, because most of them can read English fluently and write it well enough to get by, in my experience. (Very little programming documentation is ever translated into French, so French programmers get the equivalent of a couple mandatory Super Challanges per year. So of course their English is decent!) Volunteering for a French-speaking NGO is an excellent idea. When I have more time, I should probably look into what Medicins Sans Fontiers needs in the way of technology volunteers, or something.
Nice! Thank you. For reasons that will become clear below, I'm definitely looking for quality French audiobooks at the moment, free or otherwise.
Yes, I do agree that study can help even at high levels. My software for capturing sentences from audiobooks and turning them into Anki cloze cards has been super helpful for picking up obscure vocabulary, and I have some ideas for extending that to listening comprehension. But one of the reasons why study is frustrating at my level is that 90% of my remaining practical weaknesses seem to involve "activation" of knowledge I already know. Assuming I wanted to have a challenging conversation in 6 months time, and if I had to choose between: 1. Studying intensely with a tutor for the next three months, and going back to my daily French routine for three months, and 2. Waiting 5 months and 29 days, then listening to a couple of podcasts and reading part of a book, ...then I would expect to see much bigger gains from (2) at this point. When my biggest conversational problem is activating my (non-household) French, then study doesn't gain me much.
I've certainly found that combining oceans of interesting input mixed with a small amount study will help much more than either on its own. And if I were actually working in France, I'd pursue such balanced approach: Lots of professional conversations and reading, plus some focused exercises on the side. Project: Making French content easier and more interesting I'm too busy to right now actually study French, but not too busy to use it. Unfortunately, as I noted upthread, English-language media has recently been winning out in my life because it's far easier for me to acquire interesting English media than French media. So I need to do two things: 1. Make it as easy to acquire French media as it is to acquire English media. 2. Improve the quality of the French media at my disposal. Step 1: French in my car Since I currently drive about 3 hours per week for work purposes, most of it on a low-traffic interstate, I decided to tackle my car first. I had two goals: 1. Always have fresh, interesting podcasts available on my car stereo without manually downloading them to a USB drive and carrying it out to my car. I know, from experience, that high-effort solutions never get done. 2. Have an easy way to buy new French music. Now, I've always known that my car stereo has special support for iPods, but I've never actually used it. So yesterday at lunch, I finally picked up an iPod Touch that will live in my car, and I configured it to automatically download new episodes from Les années lumières (an awesome science podcat), Les Cast Codeurs (an in-depth programming podcast) and lots of interesting stuff from RFI, France Culture, France Info, France Inter and France 24. I also used the iTunes store to buy some Stromae and other French music, plus a French-language audiobook of children's tales for the kids. On the pratical front, my car is parked with range of my household wifi, so the iPod should be able to keep itself up-to-date and charged with minimal intervention. (The iPod isn't visible when plugged in, and crime is no problem: I know people around here who don't even own a key for their front door!) So that's one barrier to easy, interesting French that I've eliminated. Next steps: TV or Kindle? Other questions on my agenda: - When will my VoilaTV box update itself to Francophone TV, and will I actually get some better channels and some basic recording functionality, as promised? - What would it take to set up a Kindle that's permanently attached to Amazon.fr? I also have to decide how much money I'm willing to spend every month for this project. We don't buy US cable, which saves us better than $100/month, so maybe it would be reasonable to spend $7/month on a permanent VPN for certain household devices. Hmm. Does anyone know how to set up a French credit card if you don't actually live in France? Pre-paid is OK, as long as it allows access to French online stores. Edited by emk on 03 June 2015 at 1:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5476 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 1207 of 1317 03 June 2015 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I keep falling back into my course pattern but wise ppl like yourself are helping steer the 50,000 tonne stubborn vessel away from that iceberg :)
I tried to switch my account from US amazon to amazon.fr once quickly purchased a couple ebooks and promptly got told off. I got so annoyed as I didn't comprehend why amazon.fr can purchase so many English language titles while amazon.com has few French titles. After complaining they threatened to shut my account down altogether if I didn't comply (which included switching back to US amazon as my 'home account') Ironic when I live in Australia. I know this doesn't help you... Another thing that may not help you... I know a guy in Australia who owns apple devices who set up a 2nd apple account with a French address (chosen randomly off google maps). He doesn't pay for French content in the French apple store with a credit card (too problematic) but uses a 3rd party company that sells various European countries iTunes giftcards to buy 'in country credit' to purchase French titles. If this interests you lemme know, I'll get in touch with the guy :) 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4533 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 1208 of 1317 03 June 2015 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Setting up the car with easy to hear podcasts is great. I did something similar when I bought a radio for the kitchen, which is permanently set for Deutschlandradio Funk (the German equivalent to the BBC/PBS). I get lots and lots of good German language whenever I am in the kitchen cooking/cleaning, which adds up to a significant amount of time over the course of a month. If I lived outside of Germany I would buy an Internet radio to achieve the same result. This link might be helpful for Amazon.fr: How-to-get-Amazon-to-think-Im-in-France Would it be easier for you to get a Canadian CC or at least Amazon.ca account? I am assuming that there would be a lot of French content there as well. --------- I get that focussed study is helpful - though I am clearly allergic to it - but I have seen people (notably my wife) get to very high levels only by using the language (mostly by immersing themselves in high-quality media - though also of course by talking/writing). Edited by patrickwilken on 03 June 2015 at 2:30pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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