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 songlines Pro Member Canada flickr.com/photos/cp Joined 5209 days ago 729 posts - 1056 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: French Personal Language Map | Message 201 of 1317 18 August 2012 at 5:57am | IP Logged | ||
Thanks for the link and post. The comments thread for the FYQ post is also quite interesting, with an unexpected twist described in this one: http://rljd.tumblr.com/post/26632995077/bonjour-hi-decoding- day-to-day-bilingualism 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5532 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 202 of 1317 22 August 2012 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | ||
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FR: Merci, Swift, sctroyenne et songlines pour vos commentaires ! Je suis
toujours heureux d'avoir vos commentaires sur mon journal. Je continue à regarder excessivement de Buffy, et ça me fait du bien. Après une long journée de travail (et après que les enfants se couchent), je regarde un ou deux épisodes de « Buffy contre les vampires » avec ma femme. Et je peux comprendre de plus en plus au fil des semaines. Et maintenant, un texte que j'ai écrit sur lang-8. Je trouve que je fais de plus en plus de fautes d'orthographe. Mais ça sera assez facile à corriger à l'avenir, et je préfère passer mon temps à lire, à parler et à écouter du français. ... 
Une version plus grande Aujourd'hui, j'ai plus de hiéroglyphes pour vous ! La phrase d'aujourd'hui vient du 22e jour d'« Assimil : L'Égyptien hiéroglyphique », et je l'ai révisée ce matin sur Anki 2, un logiciel qui me permet de réviser des cartes avec des phrases dont je veux me souvenir. Vous pouvez voir la phrase en hiéroglyphes dans la capture d'écran. D'abord, une traduction : iw (i)m(j)-rA pr wr mrw sA rnsj ("Vraiment") / chef / maison / grande / Mérou / fils / Rensy Le grand intendant Rensy, fils de Mérou, xrp=f DAt.t tn administre=il / domaine / ce administre ce domaine. Comme vous pouvez voir, la grammaire de l'égyptien n'est pas trop similaire à celle du français (ni de l'anglais). Mais il y a plusieurs choses très intéressantes ici. Je vais en expliquer deux. * Le mot « iw » est une « particule » utilisée pour indiquer que ce qui suit est un fait. En français, il y a des particules similaires. Par exemple, si on commence une phrase avec « est-ce que », ça veut dire que ce qui suit est une demande. * Le mot « (i)m(j)-rA » veut dire « chef », mais les détails sont intéressants. On peut le construire en commençant avec le mot « m », qui veut dire « en, dans ». Par exemple, « m mw » signifie « dans l'eau ». Si on utilise un pronom après le « m », il faut ajouter un « i » : « im=f » veut dire « dans lui ». Mais en égyptien, on peut transformer une préposition en adjectif en ajoutant un « j ». Donc, « (i)m(j) » peut être traduit par « celui en qui est ». Est « rA » veut dire « bouche » ou « parole ». Le mot « (i)m(j)-rA » veut ainsi dire « celui en qui est la parole ». Oui, c'est compliqué, mais c'est un peu cool. Je suis surpris de comprendre tout cela après seulement 22 jours de la méthode Assimil. Je vais réviser la phrase ci-dessus dans deux jours sur Anki et cinq jours après ça et de moins en moins souvent au fur et à mesure. Je suis vraiment fasciné par l'égyptien. C'est une langue très intéressante (et plus d'un peu inhabituelle), avec un beau système d'écriture. EN: Here's a sample of one of my Anki 2 cards for Egyptian. The hieroglyphs are on the front side of the card. There's also a hidden transliteration, which forces me to read the hieroglyphs first. 
How to set up cards like this If you do one lesson per day, L'Égyptien hieroglyphique is actually a very aggressively-paced course. After three weeks (one of them dedicated to the writing system), you already have enough grammar to handle several major types of sentences. Of course, I'm not following the instructions this time through. I learned 200+ characters before starting the course, and I'm adding all the interesting sentences into Anki for periodic review. This takes more time, but I'm keeping most of the vocabulary and grammar, even the really alien stuff. And I know that I can put the course down for a long time without losing much ground. But I'm pleased to say that, every once in a while, I can hear a sentence on the Assimil audio tracks and simply understand it without thinking. Or I can glance at a very simple sentence in hieroglyphs and read it directly without first transliterating it (or translating it into French). So even after two weeks of real lessons, some of this material is starting to sink in. Once I hit lesson 30, I plan to slow down and devote more time to my French. Doing Assimil has reminded me of the power of various forms of Listening/Reading, and how much it helps to make an intensive pass through some material and then listen to it repeatedly. I have some listening comprehension cards in Anki, with a line of dialog on each one. These are enormously effective, and I wish I could mass produce them somehow. But using subs2srs would require the French to actually put accurate subtitles on TV and movies, which just isn't going to happen. Barring that, I wish I could strip a Buffy episode down to just the dialog, removing all the dead space, and listen to it repeatedly, and then go back through with a transcript. But again, the sheer toolbuilding and prep time is a drag. EDIT: Fixed some random problems in my first couple paragraphs in French. Edited by emk on 23 August 2012 at 3:44am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5532 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 203 of 1317 23 August 2012 at 9:18pm | IP Logged | ||
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EN: I sent this as a private message to Swift. But it seems like it might be of
interest to other folks. We were discussing how to balance obsessive French study with our lives in English. ... I've been "emk the anglophone" my entire life. And for a while, I became "emk the francophone", living my life almost entirely in French. My current project is a subtle and tricky one: I'm trying to merge those two identities, those two roles, into a unified whole. When do I use which language? How do I entertain myself? What sacrifices and tradeoffs do I make? This is one of the reasons I love visiting Montreal, with all of its varying degrees of bilingualism. If I pay close attention, I can see how other people do it: The firefighters who seem flawlessly bilingual in casual conversation. The bookstore clerk who has enough English to serve customers, despite the occasional vocabulary holes. The woman who speaks fast, fluent French but who assumes she can always patch the holes with English, because everybody's bilingual, right? The bakery employees who switch seamlessly between the two languages as they talk among themselves. The anglophones who chat together in French for 3 minutes before realizing that they're both native English speakers. What's the protocol when I walk into a bakery carrying a book in French, and the cashier breaks off a fluent conversation in English, turns to me, and asks me—in French, of course—what I think about the book? I can respond in French, of course, but I'll say "Pardon?" several times, and spend time searching for words. There's whole new etiquette in a world where most people speak two languages with varying degrees of proficiency. If you speak native English and B2 French, you can certainly choose to be a sort of imperfect, half-formed francophone. I do this a lot. But if you look around Montreal closely, you'll realize that half the people in street are native/B1–C2 or B1– C2/native, and they deal with this every day of their lives:
So the new, "franglophone" version of myself is still a bit of a mystery. But the first post-immersion step is going well: My writing and oral fluency may sometimes come and go, depending on how much French I'm using, but I don't think they're backsliding. And my receptive skills continue to improve. I'm finding a balance, slowly. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4889 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 204 of 1317 23 August 2012 at 9:45pm | IP Logged | ||
noticed overseas was that I had two 'identities' - the Micronesian-speaking islander while at my post, and the English-speaking American while in the district center. The two worlds were so far apart that I never did find a way to merge them. Sometimes it would take me a few days to settle into one or the other. I've always been intrigued by people who are truly bilingual, and who can switch languages easily. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| geoffw Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4688 days ago 1134 posts - 1865 votes Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian | Message 205 of 1317 23 August 2012 at 10:04pm | IP Logged | ||
Not sure I follow: what's the "balance" you're finding? That just sounds like you mean you're continuing to improve your French (nothing wrong with that, of course). I'm the first to say that language and worldview/identity are closely tied up, but do you have any further insights into what it means to you to be forging a new identity? Are you thinking of it in terms of primarily using French in certain spheres of your life (e.g., I'm someone who speaks French at home, but maybe not at work), or more of a cultural affinity (e.g., I'm someone who eats French food and cares about African politics because my overall identity includes an affinity to La Francophonie)? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5556 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 206 of 1317 23 August 2012 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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L'égyptien ancien est vraiment une language très intéressante, surtout la grammaire! Qui sait...peut-être il y aura quelques hiéroglyphes dans un grimoire dans un épisode de Buffy bientôt. :)
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| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4828 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 207 of 1317 23 August 2012 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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I wonder if Brussels (and its environs) is another city with varying degrees of
bilingualism (and varying degrees of willingness to speak the "other" language), and with an underlying political unease about the whole situation, although with a different flavour to that (I imagine), in Montreal. (Almost trilingualism really, since English is well understood and fairly widely spoken). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4847 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 208 of 1317 24 August 2012 at 2:37am | IP Logged | ||
I never lived there, but I was surprised to hear French virtually everywhere when I went to Brussels in January. I went to a supermarket and a few stores and cafes in Brussels, and I don't remember hearing any Dutch/Flemish. Dutch was written on street and store signs, though. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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