|
 |
How do native speakers learn ь and ъ? | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Русский |  | |
| Jt00 Newbie United States Joined 4543 days ago 28 posts - 30 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Latin, Ancient Greek, Russian, French | Message 1 of 11 19 July 2012 at 4:35am | IP Logged | ||
|
To the native Russian speakers on the forum, how did you learn ь and ъ growing up? This
has always confused me since I started learning Russian. The most comparable concept in English that I can think of is "silent e" where adding an e to the end of a word (like joke) makes the vowel in the middle long and the e silent. But ь and ъ modify consonants (correct?), which is completely unfamiliar to me. I have heard people complain about books that teach students to treat ь as a "y" sound, because letter combinations like пя and пья sound the same when this method is used. So, how do native speakers learn this concept growing up (i.e. how was it taught to you)? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6625 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 2 of 11 19 July 2012 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | ||
|
But that's much easier than vowels that don't have a default sound! :D
I don't remember, I think they were introduced one rule at a time. First the really easy, that at the end of the word it's used to denote a soft consonant. Then there are such concepts as разделительный твердый/мягкий знак, separating the consonant from the following syllable so that the й was pronounced. I think rather than just teaching us to rely on the phonetics, we had to learn the most common conditions for that, such as the prefixes (с-, об-) or that it often happends in foreign words eg адъютант. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5084 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 3 of 11 19 July 2012 at 2:25pm | IP Logged | ||
|
You are right. пья is pya /pja/, while пя is p'a /pʲa/, that is soft p + a without any "y"
sound. The disjunctive signs, which stand between a consonant and a vowel, indicate the presence of a "y" sound (/j/). We learn it very easily. So, adults pronounce the appropriate combinations of sounds and show the correspondent combinations of letters. It is the same as with everything else. We learned the rule that ъ is used between the prefix and the root. This is of course about the disjunctive signs. Edited by Марк on 19 July 2012 at 2:27pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s0fist Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5074 days ago 260 posts - 445 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Sign Language, German, Spanish, French | Message 4 of 11 19 July 2012 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | ||
|
I might as well ask you how you learned to pronounce the letter e.
There's no doubt about it, by the time you entered school and learned various spelling rule for when to put an e and where, you've already learned to pronounce everything, long long before. Same with Russian, long before learning how to write with correct soft and hard signs, every Russian speaker learned how to say soft consonants and how to say hard consonants, along with plenty of examples of when to use which. Later in school of course we were all told various helpful rules for when to use ъ or ь with prefixes, when to use ь with тся и ться, and so on. If you want to learn the rules, they can be found in most grammar books, if you want to learn to hear and pronounce words correctly, you should listen to and practice saying lots of words for a while. Edited by s0fist on 19 July 2012 at 9:51pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| vonPeterhof Tetraglot Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4800 days ago 715 posts - 1527 votes Speaks: Russian*, EnglishC2, Japanese, German Studies: Kazakh, Korean, Norwegian, Turkish | Message 5 of 11 19 July 2012 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | ||
Edited by vonPeterhof on 19 July 2012 at 10:15pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Jt00 Newbie United States Joined 4543 days ago 28 posts - 30 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Latin, Ancient Greek, Russian, French | Message 6 of 11 20 July 2012 at 5:07am | IP Logged | ||
|
I am looking over the FSI Russian lessons and they say to smile at first when you are learning to say soft
consonants (I guess it distorts your mouth to where it is palatized) then to only use the middle of your tongue. Is this a good approach to learning ь? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5084 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 7 of 11 20 July 2012 at 10:31am | IP Logged | ||
Your problem is pronunciation, not spelling, isn't it? The correct approach is to raise the middle of the tongue when you pronounce soft consonants. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5084 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 8 of 11 20 July 2012 at 10:34am | IP Logged | ||
Дети еще не знают, что такое мягкие и твердые согласные, когда начинают учиться читать. Родители просто произносят "ле" и показывают на "ль", а ребенок быстро интуитивно усваивает правила. 1 person has voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
