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Hitchhiker’s guide to the Chinese Galaxy
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Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log

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outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4960 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish, English, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean	Message 17 of 230 04 April 2013 at 7:24pm \| IP Logged
	Special entry 1 Hanzi learned @ 4.4.2013 = 100 Ok, so a special post about the learning Hanzi process is in order. As I mentioned above, my "goal" is to learn 4,000 unique Hanzi, and their simplified/traditional equivalents. This means that in the end we are talking about 5,000+ characters. This is a monumental undertaking which will take several years. But because it will take several years and I'm fully understanding of that, then it becomes a challenging but doable goal. My plan is to post here an entry every time I "learn" 100 characters to my satisfaction. However, this is a fluid definition and this is what I mean: Learning Hanzi involves several tasks one must achieve to have genuine command of the written language. In a general sense, I have divided them into two parts: 1. Recognizing the characters 2. Recalling the characters. The first part is not so difficult: you see the character, learn the pronunciation, and then learn the major meanings of the character. With enough repetition and exposure, this stores in long-term memory. The second is not as easy at all. To "recall" a character is like active vocabulary in language: it is much easier to build a passive vocabulary, but much more effort is involved to bring that passive knowledge to the forefront. Recalling the characters from memory is exactly that. This is where, I believe, learning how to write the characters is a MAJOR aid. Thus, I have decided to learn how to write the top 1000 characters in frequency, both in traditional and simplified, plus any other characters taught in the courses I am studying writing with, or plan to study writing with. This may yield nearly 2,000 characters I will learn to write. Why do I believe learning to write straight away is beneficial for my personal situation? I have thought about it, and there are several reasons: 1. As mentioned above, learning how to write the characters builds another pathway to memory storage. I also believe having to learn the strokes facilitates active recall of the character. In essence, while it is a lot more work at the onset to both learn and write Hanzi, I trully believe in the end it will SHORTEN my learning curve. 2. It also helps to understand how Chinese writing is built. When you practice writing, very quickly you begin to notice the radicals and other patterns, which may not be so readily obvious if you just stare and memorize. This makes it easier to learn new characters. 3. In the long term, it will make it it more enjoyable to learn. I have the feeling that if I learned to read Hanzi to a decent level, but had not learned how to write them, to have to "go back" and start to learn how to write from scratch 一、二、三、四。。。 would be a bit of a bummer at least, at worst, I may not want to do it at all since my level of Chinese reading, grammar, and vocabulary would have far outpaced my writing skills. Some of you may wonder why I said "I am learning to write the top 1,000 characters", but my goal is to learn 4,000 Hanzi. Quite simple really: all frequency lists indicate that the top 1,000 characters are the ones used in at least 90% of texts, some go as high as 95%. This means in effect that if I have good skills in writing those characters, I can pretty much write Chinese with some basic fluency. Learning how to write each character beyond that before learning the next character would slow my acquisition of low-frequency characters needed to have some fluency in reading general novels, newspapers, and web-content. What about all the other characters you may ask? Well, very long term I would learn to write those too. But in the meantime, if I had to write a new character, I'm pretty confident that I could "muddle through" given the practice I would have built. As it is now, I have a quickly developing intuition of "stroke order" and the other basic tenets of how to write a character. So I would just do the best I can to write the new character, and take my time doing so. But beyond those 1,000 characters, my focus will shift on recognizing the other 3,000 (instead of the 50-50% learning/writing for the first 1,000) and slowly work my way in learning how to write them, undoubtedly a very long-term endeavor. I think I have covered most of my thoughts on this. If anyone who has gone through this process vehemently disagrees with any of my thoughts, please by all means let me know. The experience of people who have been on this road already certainly is very welcome. Now, I will list the Hanzi I have learned in this first 100 batch. To list them here provides another place to have the information saved, plus it doubles-up as extra practice while I do it. 1-100: 一二三四五六七八九十你您好请請 (S / T) 问問 (S / T) 贵貴 (S / T) 姓他她叫什么麼 (S / T) 名字我是大学學 (S / T) 生中英文课課（S / T) 老师師 (S / T) 同校小朋友们們 (S / T) 呢谢謝 (S / T) 再见見 (S / T) 美国國 (S / T) 吗嗎 (S / T) 人也不谁誰 (S / T) 的家爸妈媽 (S / T) 和哥姐弟妹住这這 (S / T) 儿兒 (S / T) 在女那男孩子都没沒 (S / T) 有做事两兩 (S / T) 个個 (S / T) 多少时時 (S / T) Edited by outcast on 04 April 2013 at 9:59pm 3 persons have voted this message useful
proudft Senior Member United States Joined 5164 days ago 124 posts - 156 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin	Message 18 of 230 06 April 2013 at 8:36am \| IP Logged
	I think the writing is important. I still do it most of the time, at character 2300+. If I'm short on time, I will do reviews mentally, where I close my eyes and picture the character being put together from the radicals, but I never would have been able to do that had I not been writing them before, and really try not to do that more than a couple of days in a row. It's actually oddly not that much faster for me - maybe 125% the speed of writing them. But my writing is pretty messy. :) 1 person has voted this message useful
outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4960 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish, English, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean	Message 19 of 230 07 April 2013 at 8:55pm \| IP Logged
	Thanks proudft. What would be something to watch for as I start getting higher in the character count, that your experience would say? 1 person has voted this message useful
outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4960 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish, English, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean	Message 20 of 230 07 April 2013 at 9:23pm \| IP Logged
	Unit Completion Entry 4 Unit 1 Lesson 4 Basic Spoken Chinese 4.7.2013 Edited by outcast on 04 May 2013 at 4:00pm 1 person has voted this message useful
proudft Senior Member United States Joined 5164 days ago 124 posts - 156 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin	Message 21 of 230 08 April 2013 at 9:42am \| IP Logged
	Oh, just be consistent, really. It's a lot of characters and it takes a while, but it does get easier and faster over time. Like any giant task, doing a little every day will get you further faster overall than binging erratically. I use the Remembering the Hanzi books. They are a little weird because the characters are sorted into an order that groups them by component parts and not by how common they are (other than the most common 1500 are in that first book, and the next 1500 in book 2), so it can take a long time to reach a particular common character. But these components really are the key to learning the characters, so regardless of what order you want to do them in or which particular book or list you are using, make sure that you are remembering things by components and not by 'ok there are 9 strokes and they are in this order' because that is not the kind of thing that is going to stick around for long. Far easier to remember 'woman on left, turtle on right'. Eventually these components begin to basically become a goofy kind of alphabet for you and that's when things really start to come together. 2 persons have voted this message useful
outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4960 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish, English, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean	Message 22 of 230 08 April 2013 at 3:33pm \| IP Logged
	I'll try to get that book, thanks. I don't try to remember stroke order (or even) count really. I just write them out, and let my "writing" memory develop that on its own. I thought it a mistake not to remember how many strokes a character has, but then I realized if you really learn the character and can recall it, then you don't need to memorize the number of strokes. You just write it out if you need to look it up for an unknown meaning or word. To me it's been quite easy so far to remember the characters, a little harder to recall them when just seeing the pinyin + meaning. I'm assuming that at the very beginning it is easy because you don't have your head swimming with characters, and as you said it gets easier at the back end when you really assimilate the writing system. I'm guessing it is the in-between period, when you have a lot of characters but not yet feel fully comfortable with the components and short cuts to guessing meaning, that is the hardest. I may be entering it as I get past 200-300 characters. 1 person has voted this message useful
js6426 Diglot Senior Member Cambodia Joined 4531 days ago 277 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English*, Khmer Studies: Mandarin	Message 23 of 230 08 April 2013 at 4:29pm \| IP Logged
	Seems that you are doing well with characters, keep up the good work! I just hit the 500 mark myself! I think it does get easier, but what I struggle with is writing a character almost correct, but not quite (which is 100% wrong of course). This is an issue with characters that haven't popped up for 3 months on Anki, all of a sudden they return, and I cross a line where I shouldn't, or don't cross where I should etc! However, while writing out characters infrequently becomes a challenge, they stick much better in my memory when it comes to reading them! Looking forward to following your progress 2 persons have voted this message useful
outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4960 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish, English, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean	Message 24 of 230 08 April 2013 at 7:39pm \| IP Logged
	Thanks js6426. I am not doing flash cards yet, as I think I can handle brute repetition for the first 200-300 characters. After that it is probable I will do some sort of flash card system. Yes, I've noticed the writing faults too, it's always some little dot or minor line that kills me, not so much the major components. Or, I get the stroke direction wrong and that messes up my muscle memory when writing the rest of it! Ok, I forgot the progress entry for the 5th, wow time flew by this week!!! Also my special post about the characters probably led me to believe I had done a WPE. Wrong!. So here it goes... two days late but better than never: - - - - - - - Weekly Progress Entry 3 4.5.2013 Ok, so slowly I am now settling into a study pattern and a time pattern. At least for the first unit, the lessons took me 3-4 days to internalize to my satisfaction. this means: - Basically memorizing the dialogues (which is recommended by the book... not as bad as it sounds, since they are very short and these were mainly the most basic greeting expressions and status questions) - memorizing the vocabulary list - understanding the grammar, which has been quite easy so far, and again, my other languages are helping immensely here. Example: "shi" is used in situations where Spanish uses SER (the subject equals the descriptor), "hen" + stative verb where Spanish uses ESTAR (the subject is "experiencing" the descriptor). This probably is not a bullet proof fast rule but it has worked surprisingly well thus far. - getting some of the cultural information assimilated on how to act, what words to use, in different environments. I periodically read again these sections, mainly because review is king and I don't memorize the cultural notes, I think just reading them a few times gets you the idea (don't point at Chinese people, etc!) As I had set out to do, I finished Unit 1 during the weekend, and now have started Unit 2. I still don't see anything that is challenging me when I first encounter it. Sure, to output the patterns is hard, mainly because I still am thinking about tones + pronunciation + speed + cadence + vocabulary + grammar, all at once. I know that with time some of those will become more automatic and make it easier. Already, some of the easiest patterns are coming more naturally because of the extensive practice sessions I do every day (1-2 hours). As mentioned in my special post, I finished the first 100 batch of characters. I'm not in the middle of the 2nd 100 batch of characters, right around 150 or so. This includes writing them. It's easier than I thought so far. I insist that I always believed I had a good visual memory, so maybe that is helping me? I've also listened to the extra-practice dialogues, but I don't listen to them over and over. I listen to them a couple of times, then listen to them again a couple of days later. I feel I want to keep them somewhat "fresh", so that when I hear them my mind has to focus on what sound like different patterns. I also listened ahead to the next few listening exercises for the unit I'm working on now, before having studied them, just to get my brain to begin "sifting" known bits of information from within all the new information, to at least TRY getting the gist of it. It actually worked a little. I have not taken out Pimsleur yet. I've decided to just stick with this course for the moment, and wait until I feel a bit 'plateau-ed" by it. Then I'll pop-out the Pimsleur for a change of pace that I'm sure will be positive for my mind. Regardless, I plan to take it out no later than after completing Unit 5 of Basic Spoken Chinese. I plan to meet with the Tutor's school Tuesday to try to work some plan out so I can begin the weekly personal tutoring classes. That is it. This week I'll just continue with Unit 2 (I would assume half done with it somewhere in the weekend), and maybe hit 200 Hanzi by next Monday. Till the next WPE on 4.12.2013! 2 persons have voted this message useful

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outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4960 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish, English, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean	Message 17 of 230 04 April 2013 at 7:24pm \| IP Logged
	Special entry 1 Hanzi learned @ 4.4.2013 = 100 Ok, so a special post about the learning Hanzi process is in order. As I mentioned above, my "goal" is to learn 4,000 unique Hanzi, and their simplified/traditional equivalents. This means that in the end we are talking about 5,000+ characters. This is a monumental undertaking which will take several years. But because it will take several years and I'm fully understanding of that, then it becomes a challenging but doable goal. My plan is to post here an entry every time I "learn" 100 characters to my satisfaction. However, this is a fluid definition and this is what I mean: Learning Hanzi involves several tasks one must achieve to have genuine command of the written language. In a general sense, I have divided them into two parts: 1. Recognizing the characters 2. Recalling the characters. The first part is not so difficult: you see the character, learn the pronunciation, and then learn the major meanings of the character. With enough repetition and exposure, this stores in long-term memory. The second is not as easy at all. To "recall" a character is like active vocabulary in language: it is much easier to build a passive vocabulary, but much more effort is involved to bring that passive knowledge to the forefront. Recalling the characters from memory is exactly that. This is where, I believe, learning how to write the characters is a MAJOR aid. Thus, I have decided to learn how to write the top 1000 characters in frequency, both in traditional and simplified, plus any other characters taught in the courses I am studying writing with, or plan to study writing with. This may yield nearly 2,000 characters I will learn to write. Why do I believe learning to write straight away is beneficial for my personal situation? I have thought about it, and there are several reasons: 1. As mentioned above, learning how to write the characters builds another pathway to memory storage. I also believe having to learn the strokes facilitates active recall of the character. In essence, while it is a lot more work at the onset to both learn and write Hanzi, I trully believe in the end it will SHORTEN my learning curve. 2. It also helps to understand how Chinese writing is built. When you practice writing, very quickly you begin to notice the radicals and other patterns, which may not be so readily obvious if you just stare and memorize. This makes it easier to learn new characters. 3. In the long term, it will make it it more enjoyable to learn. I have the feeling that if I learned to read Hanzi to a decent level, but had not learned how to write them, to have to "go back" and start to learn how to write from scratch 一、二、三、四。。。 would be a bit of a bummer at least, at worst, I may not want to do it at all since my level of Chinese reading, grammar, and vocabulary would have far outpaced my writing skills. Some of you may wonder why I said "I am learning to write the top 1,000 characters", but my goal is to learn 4,000 Hanzi. Quite simple really: all frequency lists indicate that the top 1,000 characters are the ones used in at least 90% of texts, some go as high as 95%. This means in effect that if I have good skills in writing those characters, I can pretty much write Chinese with some basic fluency. Learning how to write each character beyond that before learning the next character would slow my acquisition of low-frequency characters needed to have some fluency in reading general novels, newspapers, and web-content. What about all the other characters you may ask? Well, very long term I would learn to write those too. But in the meantime, if I had to write a new character, I'm pretty confident that I could "muddle through" given the practice I would have built. As it is now, I have a quickly developing intuition of "stroke order" and the other basic tenets of how to write a character. So I would just do the best I can to write the new character, and take my time doing so. But beyond those 1,000 characters, my focus will shift on recognizing the other 3,000 (instead of the 50-50% learning/writing for the first 1,000) and slowly work my way in learning how to write them, undoubtedly a very long-term endeavor. I think I have covered most of my thoughts on this. If anyone who has gone through this process vehemently disagrees with any of my thoughts, please by all means let me know. The experience of people who have been on this road already certainly is very welcome. Now, I will list the Hanzi I have learned in this first 100 batch. To list them here provides another place to have the information saved, plus it doubles-up as extra practice while I do it. 1-100: 一二三四五六七八九十你您好请請 (S / T) 问問 (S / T) 贵貴 (S / T) 姓他她叫什么麼 (S / T) 名字我是大学學 (S / T) 生中英文课課（S / T) 老师師 (S / T) 同校小朋友们們 (S / T) 呢谢謝 (S / T) 再见見 (S / T) 美国國 (S / T) 吗嗎 (S / T) 人也不谁誰 (S / T) 的家爸妈媽 (S / T) 和哥姐弟妹住这這 (S / T) 儿兒 (S / T) 在女那男孩子都没沒 (S / T) 有做事两兩 (S / T) 个個 (S / T) 多少时時 (S / T) Edited by outcast on 04 April 2013 at 9:59pm 3 persons have voted this message useful
proudft Senior Member United States Joined 5164 days ago 124 posts - 156 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin	Message 18 of 230 06 April 2013 at 8:36am \| IP Logged
	I think the writing is important. I still do it most of the time, at character 2300+. If I'm short on time, I will do reviews mentally, where I close my eyes and picture the character being put together from the radicals, but I never would have been able to do that had I not been writing them before, and really try not to do that more than a couple of days in a row. It's actually oddly not that much faster for me - maybe 125% the speed of writing them. But my writing is pretty messy. :) 1 person has voted this message useful
outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4960 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish, English, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean	Message 19 of 230 07 April 2013 at 8:55pm \| IP Logged
	Thanks proudft. What would be something to watch for as I start getting higher in the character count, that your experience would say? 1 person has voted this message useful
outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4960 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish, English, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean	Message 20 of 230 07 April 2013 at 9:23pm \| IP Logged
	Unit Completion Entry 4 Unit 1 Lesson 4 Basic Spoken Chinese 4.7.2013 Edited by outcast on 04 May 2013 at 4:00pm 1 person has voted this message useful
proudft Senior Member United States Joined 5164 days ago 124 posts - 156 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin	Message 21 of 230 08 April 2013 at 9:42am \| IP Logged
	Oh, just be consistent, really. It's a lot of characters and it takes a while, but it does get easier and faster over time. Like any giant task, doing a little every day will get you further faster overall than binging erratically. I use the Remembering the Hanzi books. They are a little weird because the characters are sorted into an order that groups them by component parts and not by how common they are (other than the most common 1500 are in that first book, and the next 1500 in book 2), so it can take a long time to reach a particular common character. But these components really are the key to learning the characters, so regardless of what order you want to do them in or which particular book or list you are using, make sure that you are remembering things by components and not by 'ok there are 9 strokes and they are in this order' because that is not the kind of thing that is going to stick around for long. Far easier to remember 'woman on left, turtle on right'. Eventually these components begin to basically become a goofy kind of alphabet for you and that's when things really start to come together. 2 persons have voted this message useful
outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4960 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish, English, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean	Message 22 of 230 08 April 2013 at 3:33pm \| IP Logged
	I'll try to get that book, thanks. I don't try to remember stroke order (or even) count really. I just write them out, and let my "writing" memory develop that on its own. I thought it a mistake not to remember how many strokes a character has, but then I realized if you really learn the character and can recall it, then you don't need to memorize the number of strokes. You just write it out if you need to look it up for an unknown meaning or word. To me it's been quite easy so far to remember the characters, a little harder to recall them when just seeing the pinyin + meaning. I'm assuming that at the very beginning it is easy because you don't have your head swimming with characters, and as you said it gets easier at the back end when you really assimilate the writing system. I'm guessing it is the in-between period, when you have a lot of characters but not yet feel fully comfortable with the components and short cuts to guessing meaning, that is the hardest. I may be entering it as I get past 200-300 characters. 1 person has voted this message useful
js6426 Diglot Senior Member Cambodia Joined 4531 days ago 277 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English*, Khmer Studies: Mandarin	Message 23 of 230 08 April 2013 at 4:29pm \| IP Logged
	Seems that you are doing well with characters, keep up the good work! I just hit the 500 mark myself! I think it does get easier, but what I struggle with is writing a character almost correct, but not quite (which is 100% wrong of course). This is an issue with characters that haven't popped up for 3 months on Anki, all of a sudden they return, and I cross a line where I shouldn't, or don't cross where I should etc! However, while writing out characters infrequently becomes a challenge, they stick much better in my memory when it comes to reading them! Looking forward to following your progress 2 persons have voted this message useful
outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4960 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish, English, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean	Message 24 of 230 08 April 2013 at 7:39pm \| IP Logged
	Thanks js6426. I am not doing flash cards yet, as I think I can handle brute repetition for the first 200-300 characters. After that it is probable I will do some sort of flash card system. Yes, I've noticed the writing faults too, it's always some little dot or minor line that kills me, not so much the major components. Or, I get the stroke direction wrong and that messes up my muscle memory when writing the rest of it! Ok, I forgot the progress entry for the 5th, wow time flew by this week!!! Also my special post about the characters probably led me to believe I had done a WPE. Wrong!. So here it goes... two days late but better than never: - - - - - - - Weekly Progress Entry 3 4.5.2013 Ok, so slowly I am now settling into a study pattern and a time pattern. At least for the first unit, the lessons took me 3-4 days to internalize to my satisfaction. this means: - Basically memorizing the dialogues (which is recommended by the book... not as bad as it sounds, since they are very short and these were mainly the most basic greeting expressions and status questions) - memorizing the vocabulary list - understanding the grammar, which has been quite easy so far, and again, my other languages are helping immensely here. Example: "shi" is used in situations where Spanish uses SER (the subject equals the descriptor), "hen" + stative verb where Spanish uses ESTAR (the subject is "experiencing" the descriptor). This probably is not a bullet proof fast rule but it has worked surprisingly well thus far. - getting some of the cultural information assimilated on how to act, what words to use, in different environments. I periodically read again these sections, mainly because review is king and I don't memorize the cultural notes, I think just reading them a few times gets you the idea (don't point at Chinese people, etc!) As I had set out to do, I finished Unit 1 during the weekend, and now have started Unit 2. I still don't see anything that is challenging me when I first encounter it. Sure, to output the patterns is hard, mainly because I still am thinking about tones + pronunciation + speed + cadence + vocabulary + grammar, all at once. I know that with time some of those will become more automatic and make it easier. Already, some of the easiest patterns are coming more naturally because of the extensive practice sessions I do every day (1-2 hours). As mentioned in my special post, I finished the first 100 batch of characters. I'm not in the middle of the 2nd 100 batch of characters, right around 150 or so. This includes writing them. It's easier than I thought so far. I insist that I always believed I had a good visual memory, so maybe that is helping me? I've also listened to the extra-practice dialogues, but I don't listen to them over and over. I listen to them a couple of times, then listen to them again a couple of days later. I feel I want to keep them somewhat "fresh", so that when I hear them my mind has to focus on what sound like different patterns. I also listened ahead to the next few listening exercises for the unit I'm working on now, before having studied them, just to get my brain to begin "sifting" known bits of information from within all the new information, to at least TRY getting the gist of it. It actually worked a little. I have not taken out Pimsleur yet. I've decided to just stick with this course for the moment, and wait until I feel a bit 'plateau-ed" by it. Then I'll pop-out the Pimsleur for a change of pace that I'm sure will be positive for my mind. Regardless, I plan to take it out no later than after completing Unit 5 of Basic Spoken Chinese. I plan to meet with the Tutor's school Tuesday to try to work some plan out so I can begin the weekly personal tutoring classes. That is it. This week I'll just continue with Unit 2 (I would assume half done with it somewhere in the weekend), and maybe hit 200 Hanzi by next Monday. Till the next WPE on 4.12.2013! 2 persons have voted this message useful