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Is Arabic underestimated? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| hp230 Tetraglot Newbie TunisiaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3694 days ago 30 posts - 63 votes  Speaks: German, Arabic (classical)*, French, English | Message 49 of 75 11 July 2015 at 3:12am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I agree with ScottScheule, we can't predict what can happen. It's true that the linguistic situation is getting worse day after day, nonethelss, there are poeple out there who are conscious of the gravity of its impact on the future of the arabic nation. As I said before, it depends on the political will. Many questions were raised about the teaching policies in Tunisia in the past three years, and everybody is now alerted. New decisions were taken within a "national dialogue" in order to find solutions to the situation. In fact, the arabic language was not the only target of negilgence, the hole educational system is "virused". Some people think that a hole generation missed the train, so it's high time to save the coming ones. I heard about such saving program to the arabic language in Morocco, in the UAE also where the red line was crossed: parents asking for stopping the teaching of Arabic in some private schools due to the difficulties their children find in the process !!. In Egypt as well, observing political leaders unable to compose a good sentence in MSA and making huge spelling mistakes was the last straw. So globally, everyone is alerted and looking for solutions. As I know, there is no clear programs and every country is facing the situation alone, and that's really unfortunate I think. To conclude, everything is possible, let's just hope for the best. As for arabs exchanging the language for a better life in Europe, I'm afraid that didn't work as they intended, since -as I mentioned previously- some of their descendants are looking back to their origins, learning Arabic in summer schools and discovering their parent's primal culture.
I don't think dielects will ever mix. Maybe some words will be added to the vocabulary of the dielect, but nothing else. Why I think so? : simply because the number of speakers of each dielect is huge and increasing continuously. For exemple, the population in Tunisia -which is one of the smallest arab countries demographically- counts 11 million which is comparable with the population of the Czech Republic :).
Not only immigrants. I've already mentioned that the massive production of Egyptian movies/series have affected the rest of the arabic world. Well , many actors from arab countries go to Egypt and act in those shows. They master the Egyptian dielect and you can't tell they're not egyptians. Nevertheless, other dielects may take many years to master and that depends on the primal dielect. For exemple, tunisian and algerian are very close, morrocan as well, but iraqui dielect is distant from the previous three. So, you can imagine two people, one from Iraq and the other from Ageria living in Morroco, it's obvious that the algerian would master the morrocan dielect first. The iraqui may never master it. Dielects between arab folk doesn't really present a major problem though, since almost everyone speaks MSA. MSA is one of the signs of our union, but it's getting weak, with wars, religious conflicts and globalization. Again, everything is possible. The tunisian revolution was a leading event promising a change in the arab picture. It may be just a political revolution (not yet completed and waiting for the cultural one), but as you see, many other countries tried to follow the example (in spite of the results), that may be an omen that if the linguistic situation changes for the best in just one country, the end would be happy for all. Let's just hope so. Edited by hp230 on 11 July 2015 at 3:15am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6062 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 50 of 75 11 July 2015 at 3:33am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
"Forecasting is just a way of replacing the unknown by error." I won't pretend to have an answer, but I think it's interesting to think of Europe a few centuries ago: you'd probably live your entire life within a small radius from your house. This wouldn't be valid for members of nobility, wars, pilgrimages, and the odd profession, but the rest would stay put. Dialects and accents varied wildly: if the next village was on the other side of a river or a mountain, chances would be they would speak a different version of your dialect. If they belonged to another kingdom, we could be talking of a whole different language. Even most army regiments had a regional basis: can you imagine Czech soldiers mixed with Austrians and Hungarians in a trench? Difficult. This was gradually eroded by schooling, newspapers, trains, and eventually radio and TV. Italians chose a national language 150 years ago, but they only have been speaking it as a rule for a couple of generations (blame it on TV). I won't speculate about the similarities between the Arab world and these events, but I'm sure there must be an evolution: material conditions will evolve; literacy levels will improve; social awareness will increase. And language use will evolve too.
Interesting. A revival can come from the most unexpected places. In Italy, until recently, dialects were the norm (cf. above). Then they became a sign of backwardness. Now, they are hip. Same thing with Mirandese in Portugal. Go figure. Edited by Luso on 11 July 2015 at 3:43am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 51 of 75 11 July 2015 at 4:35am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Do most Algerians in Morocco master it though? I'd imagine it's like with a Spaniard in Portugal or a Norwegian in Sweden. They can adapt and function, but most will never speak 100% Portuguese/Swedish respectively. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4291 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 52 of 75 11 July 2015 at 6:01am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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One of my Lebanese friends told me a few years ago that in Lebanon, French and English
are both the important business languages, especially the former due to being ruled by France until 1946(?) or so, and that Lebanese children usually either go to a lycée or an Anglophone school until university, where they often either go abroad or stay in the country and go to for example, the American University of Beirut or the Francophone university that was founded by Jesuit Lyonnaise nuns in the 1800s. Meanwhile Arabic can be spoken at home and between friends, but the curricula have French and/or English. So perhaps Lebanon also are in the same way, with French and English? Most of the Lebanese that I met I spoke either one of those with them and they are quite proficient. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Woodsei Bilingual Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Woodsei Joined 4798 days ago 614 posts - 782 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Egyptian)* Studies: Russian, Japanese, Hungarian | Message 53 of 75 11 July 2015 at 1:04pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I thought I'd join in on the discussion and offer my views.
I lived and have biological roots both in the US and Egypt (parents), so I'm hoping my thoughts would be useful to some of you in the thread. In terms of language, Arabic isn't declining or going anywhere! I'm not sure what the situation is in Tunisia, but in Egypt, Arabic is still going strong. Yes, there is emphasis and focus on English mostly, and then French and German, as both a status symbol, and to be able to study and work in foreign countries and/or corporations. In a sense, in Egypt, the homogeneity of the people, the culture, and the language is very, very similar to Japan. Since I have started learning Japanese, it struck me how similar certain views are: respect to the elderly, honorifics, the importance and integration of family, how they respond to people from the West, language barriers (and English which is heavily accented if learned without access to native speakers), teens' ideas of what is cool and what is not, the sense of humor and the puns, and ideas about life. Egyptians are generally really amicable and friendly, and wouldn't treat a foreigner with contempt. However, there are certainly a lot of differences, and in the more rural, or isolated (ghettoish) areas, hygiene is main obstacle. It even extended to public hospitals, and currently there is an uproar in quality of medical care, hygiene in streets and hospitals, and since the Arab Spring, security issues and curfews. Private hospitals are taken care of pretty well. People I talk to tell me that life generally goes on, and that the problems touted in the media are given so much focus that makes people tend to think that this is all there is to the country. Not true. Schools and colleges are in full swing, work is as usual, people still go out and party, etc. I'm not going to pretend that all is sunshine and roses over there, though. The economy is terrible, the aforementioned hygiene issue, and so on and so forth. The similarity to a culture like Japan ends at the personal level, unfortunately. But I have hope. The younger generations are now made more aware of the outside world, the disparities in the country and the unfair rule, and they are actively trying to do something about it. But change is not easy, and will probably take time to be in full effect. Not like the West. People here are very much aware of their rights, sensitized to politics earlier, are generally well-informed, there is freedom of speech, etc. That was not the case in Egypt until a few years back. People are trying to change now. How this will play out, I am not sure. Egyptians, politically and economically, have a lot of catching up to do. It's sad, but true. Culturally and linguistically, however, there is a lot in Egypt. Yes, current novelists that make memorable writings are not as common as ones that were there 50 years ago, but contemporary works are being produced. There was a true story of a 30 something female lawyer who wanted to be in a relationship and get married, and her memoir, which was later adapted into a drama series, garnered a lot of positive attention, as in her story, she reflects the old traditions of arranged marriages, society's views on a "late" marriage, and where she is in all of this, as a modern, independent woman with different and more contemporary views. And women nowadays are increasingly like that. Maybe in the rural areas things are still pretty much as has been portrayed, not accurately I'm sad to say, but the tide is changing, and in a big way. The ideals of the West are being embraced so fast, especially in metropolitan areas, and things like education, women's rights, freedom of speech, and relationships that are not dictated by religious and cultural norms are changing. I'm not citing opinions, just stating the facts. The media industry is so active, they are churning out 80+ TV dramas in a few months period, movies as well, and talk shows like it's nobody's business. In the past few years a show similar to The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, hosted by a former surgeon who received his training in the States, took off to widely, and wildly, positive recognition and acclaim. Not sure if I'm a fan, though, but you get the idea. Young 20 and 30 somethings are taking to Youtube and making incredibly well-made videos about their opinions on everything, from politics to running jokes. I'm amazed at how much Egypt has changed in the past few years. Unfortunately the bad also exists, but people are certainly verbal about it, where in the past, nothing was said. The "old" movies (black and white), even the 70 s movies, and novels for people like Naguib Mahfouz, still portray a huge aspect of the Egyptian culture, most of which is relevant today. It's not outdated by any means. The current scene in Egypt is like this: What the older books and media show, and the changes taking place in my generation currently, which is represented through media and forums. Yes, online forums where people take to writing Arabic in the Egyptian or Syrian dialect, not MSA. There is also romanization as you would find for learners of Japanese, people posting and tweeting shorthand, speaking Arabic through English text by romanizing pronunciation, and so on and so forth. The changes portrayed in the media are also interesting. Wherein the oldies focused on both the first and lower classes, with their wide differences, ethics, and beliefs, all classes now are being shown. Trends in changes of speech, dialects, mannerisms are currently the norm. In the old days, swear words were rarely used, as they were signs of bad form, bad work, and grating on the ears. Socially unacceptable. Today, oh boy. Sometimes I have a hard time finishing an episode for something, because of that. But again, not all is like that. What I'm trying to say is, speech is now very much reflective of how people talk. Relationships are very much like Western relationships, which, for Arab countries not too long ago, was stigmatized. Again, not so much today. For the Turkish learners, you probably know that the Turkish drama industry took the world by storm a few years back. So on Egyptian tv channels, tons of dubbed Turkish shows are being aired. The culture and ideals of these shows is also being embraced and is influencing more and more people in Egypt today. At least in the Cairo/Alexandria area. I'm not being dramatic. Literally, tons. They are actually dubbed by Syrians, and Jordanians, so you have a large pool of shows to choose from if you want to learn the Levantine dialect. Syrian, Lebanese, and Jordanian shows are still there (I tend to favor the Syrian ones because they're better produced), but since the very sad and unfortunate events of Syria, I'm not sure if they are able to maintain the momentum of media production. I have also read books for Syrian, writers. So you do have choices. The problem with the accessibility of these resources is due to non-existent marketing, and the tendency, of Egyptians at least, to shy away from promoting their works. Partly because of the way some are, and partly because, unfortunately, with the current political unrest, some people feel that their culture is stigmatized, and don't want to associate with it, or feel that it would be unsafe and considered that they have political agendas, which they don't. It's sad. While the culture is thriving in-house, it's not doing so much outside the borders, and you probably would have better luck if you make a trip there. But recently, lots of website have been springing up in the United States that sell all sorts of books, from educational children's books, to authentic novels, to foreign language teaching material. They're a bit on the expensive side, but they're finally here. Dar El Manhal, a book publisher from Syria, I believe, and Egyptian publishing houses are finally starting to move their products abroad. Noor Art is an example (for kids, mostly) and some others I will try to fish around for in my never-ending pile of bookmarks, and I'll try to post it here. Also, if you make a language partner from Egypt, the general consensus is that they will be willing to get you books and resources, and make recommendations for media and other things. People are generally very much into showing people around Egypt. Kanewai, I'm sorry you had such a horrible experience visiting Egypt. Having a tour guide and being with a reputable tourism company would have probably helped avoid some of the very negative experiences you had there. Hustlers, especially, are poorly educated people from very very backwards environments and upbringing, and then they hear a word or two about a foreign stereotype, and jump on the wagon. It's very disrespectful, they try to extort you in anyway possible, and they do it to Egyptian locals too. It's a reality, unfortunately, but not all areas are like that. I hope you are lucky enough to meet some normal and regular people. They are generally very friendly and very hospitable. Same for you too, Cavesa. While a lot of tourists go for the monuments and the beaches,, a lot are actually living for extended periods in the region, and genuinely trying to get to know the culture and the people. But, most of them don't come with tourist companies. They just usually have made a few friends online or in their own countries previously, and came with them, have been hosted, or at least helped around by them. A friend of mine who currently lives in Cairo had such a friend. He lived there for over a year. There are both the positives and the negatives. And people from the west are generally turned off by the crazy driving (no street laws, can you imagine! Well at least the traffic lights are still respected) and the hygiene in some areas, not all. Others have better experiences, been to better places, and seem to enjoy speeding without a speed limit imposed, lol. Even the drag races at night. :D The problem with Arabic dwindling down is mostly pronounced in Arab speakers living abroad. I have not lived in Egypt as much, most of my life here, but my parents made sure that I spoke both mother languages equally, especially Arabic, at home from day one. Simply because they knew that outside of the home, English will be my main focus, and really, the only opportunity I had was at home. This is not only with Arabic, but with other languages as well. I think for Arabic, especially, the social stigma associated with the Middle East. Religious representation on TV unfortunately does great disservice to those who practice it, and you'd realize that if you spoke with a normal average Joe or Jane going about their day. It's looked at by some of the younger people as "uncool" simply because a lot are judged negatively because they come from the area or speak the language. I don't want to get into politics, but you probably know what I mean. It's harder as well for the parents, who have to work most of the day, to come home and speak to their kids in Arabic, and usually default to English. Not everyone is like that, though, but that's probably why everyone knows immersion works. You JUST have got to speak the local language, no two ways about it. The native one falls into disuse. You get people who understand, but don't speak. Then their kids, as a result, don't speak OR understand. And then that's it. In Egypt, however, being able to speak a foreign language is a status symbol, puts you up there with the cool kids, and you're looked at as sophisticated and of a higher social level. So many people start inserting English language words, phrases, or simply start speaking full-fledged English with someone else who can speak full-fledged English. :D And people stare, lol. But, these same people, while being multilingual, can still speak superb, flawless Arabic among there peers as well, so the language, in Egypt at least, isn't dying out. I do know some Algerian people who told me that French is a national language, like Arabic, and that people speak both, with more French than Arabic. They even have French names. So it differs from region to region, probably more in Tunisia, Algeria, and maybe Morocco. Not so much in Egypt, the Gulf countries, and Syria, as well as Jordan. Lebanon is famous for the focus on French. And they speak better French , excellent French, than most Egyptians speak English. Not to sound like a broken record, but look at it like how English is in Japan. Unless you're in an English-speaking school with native speaker, in Egypt, English teaching in the public school starts in middle school, and it's terrible. They can't say one word. Focus is on grammar and grammar terms with zero exposure. But that was sometime back. While the education is still pretty much the same, the current mass exposure to Western films, dramas, and the tons of cable channels that have been launched more than 10 years ago in the Arab world that specifically air only English TV series and movies, shows, news, sports, etc., is changing that. In addition to the genuine interest in Western culture. There are equivalents for other languages too. TV 5, and other foreign channels are being aired. 24/7. In the old days on national Egyptian channels, there were shows that aired in the evening where you could watch a foreign film, and these films were also pretty old. This is now dead. People stopped watching local TV for the most part, or at least watch it very little, and are now watching Egyptian cable channels, channels airing American/English/Australian/Canadian content all day, or foreign channels if they have access to them. And of course, the internet. The latest technology hits the stores immediately, where previously there was a delay. Again, I'm only speaking from my experiences. As whether to learn MSA or dialects, here are my two cents. For reading newspapers and watching neWs, or historical dramas, you need MSA. For everything else, learn a dialect. i would say Egyptian because this has the most media, and since the country is still relatively safe, you can visit it, and know people from there. Learning a different dialect is not hard. It's like Kansai-ben and Tokyo-ben. It's still Japanese, but you need to listen to it, get used to it, and figure out the subtle differences. You're not learning a different language at all. Well, in the case of Moroccan and Algerian, I guess I could say the dialects vary greatly. I understand Arabic and have a hard time making out what they say, and then they default to Egyptian or Levantine (mostly Egyptian) for people to understand them. But not so with the gulf dialect, or the Levantine. These are extremely comprehensible. I think there's an FSI book that worked out the similarities and differences between levantine and egyptian? And of course, the inner dialects of Egypt have the same issue, but standard Egyptian is so widespread that EVERYONE understands and speaks it. Other Arab countries naturally learn the dialect through exposure to the media, but Egyptians usually have a hard time speaking anything other than Egyptian, simply because of the above. Only if he/she has lived in Lebanon, for instance, or if he/she has a Lebanese parent can an Egyptian speak in the Lebanese dialect. They do, however, understand the dialects. I guess learn the dialect first, as you will have access to people and media, then learn MSA. Heck, there are even forums where they write in the dialects, not MSA. MSA isn't as hard as people make it out to be. If you read a lot of books, you'll get the hang of it. I understand books are scarce, but online news and blogs are out there to help with that until you can have access to books. In terms of the language learning books imposing Islamic ideals, I don't know, haven't seen those. What I see some books doing are showing cultural ideals, not religious. And even if there are religious aspects there, they're there because they have become part of the culture, and not to impose a religious agenda. Believe me, the book publishers in Egypt rarely, if ever, think about that and just want to go home. I'm sure there are religious books out there, but these are usually used for divinity studies in graduate educational institutions, and not for foreign language learners. But I have seen a series of books made for foreigners, and written entirely in the Arabic language, using colorful pictures to guide you as clues. They are wonderful, and I wish there were books like that for other languages. There are also readers. They are mostly produced by Dar Al-Manhal, but readers are available from both Syrian or Jordanian and Egyptian publishing houses. I can try to hunt down some links and resources from an Arabic teacher I know who brings these things here to the States for teaching purposes, if anyone's interested. I'm very sorry that this is such a long post, but I hope through it that you have all gained some perspective in how things are, at least in Egypt. Anyway, hope that helped! EDIT: Due to some horrific spelling mistakes. Edited by Woodsei on 11 July 2015 at 3:08pm 21 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| hp230 Tetraglot Newbie TunisiaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3694 days ago 30 posts - 63 votes Speaks: German, Arabic (classical)*, French, English | Message 54 of 75 11 July 2015 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I don't know about how close is Portuguese to Spanish, or Norwegian to Swedish, but I don't think it's the same situation here, morrocan and algerian dielects are really close, with years I don't think an algerian would have problems with the details ( I don't say it would be easy, it can take some time). I think what Woodsei wrote supports globally what I've said previously but there are some points to clear up.
Yes, the situation may be different in Egypt, but what I'm sure of, is that MSA is declining in almost all arabic coutries, including Egypt. In Mai 2015, the fourth Arabic language conference was held in Dubai to discuss the linguistic situation in Arab countries and find solutions to the decline of MSA's importance especially in terms of teaching methodologies and technical specialities. Sorry if I say this, but in terms of rhetoric and language beauty, MSA is incomparable with any dielect. The literature inheritance that we dispose of can only prove that. I'm not underestimating the beauty of dielects, but they are only for day to day talks. So in the end, someone who is learning Arabic should set first his goals. Does he just want to talk with arabic people? learning the dielect may do it for him, and as Woodsei said, egyptian would be the easiest because of mass media and so on. However, IMHO tasting the real beauty of the Arabic language and studying the culture isn't possible without learning MSA. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 55 of 75 11 July 2015 at 7:05pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Wow thanks for the great post!
Do sports commentators speak MSA or dialects btw? 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| hp230 Tetraglot Newbie TunisiaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3694 days ago 30 posts - 63 votes Speaks: German, Arabic (classical)*, French, English | Message 56 of 75 11 July 2015 at 8:28pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
In local events dielects more likely. Otherwise, sport events are usually reported in MSA. However, you know in a football match for exemple, enthusiasm generally makes commentators pronounce dielect-words. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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