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に、 が、 を、で。。 | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Georgi87 Triglot Groupie Israel Joined 6311 days ago 43 posts - 44 votes Speaks: Russian*, English, French Studies: Japanese | Message 1 of 8 07 September 2007 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hello, all! I've picked up a book on Japanese particles today, and have divided the 4 mentioned in the tread title by their most common usage(s) as follows:
を ー used to indicate an object, or a point of departure, and verbs that imply your continuous movement in one location. が ー used to indicate something that you own, or to indicate that something exists somewhere. に ー used to indicate a destination/point of arrival, whether you're going somewhere or giving someone something. Used with verbs which imply movement from one place to another. で ー used with verbs that imply an action without movement. Now.. The big question is.. How many verbs are there that do not fit into these categories? I saw this example in my textbook, which has been driving me crazy: アルファは ソファーに 吸います I just don't get it.. Why would "inhale/smoke" use に？ Can anyone help me out? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Georgi87 Triglot Groupie Israel Joined 6311 days ago 43 posts - 44 votes Speaks: Russian*, English, French Studies: Japanese | Message 2 of 8 07 September 2007 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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Update: A forum member explained the above example to me in the following way (or, at least, this is how I understood it):
You use で when you're talking about doing something in a place You use に when you're talking about doing something somewhere that's not quite a location; eg, a sofa. I'm not sure if I understood his explanation fully, but it was definitely helpful. The forum member's name is Staccato, and though he hasn't posted anywhere yet, his language profile is very interesting :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| furyou_gaijin Senior Member Japan Joined 6396 days ago 540 posts - 631 votes  Speaks: Latin* | Message 3 of 8 07 September 2007 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | ||
日本に住む = 246,000 hits on Google... So would you argue that Japan is not 'quite a location'? Or that there is movement involved?!... Some very detailed rules on the use of particles are formulated in the 'Dictionary of Basic Grammar' and in tons of other books. But the best advice is not to bother about them until you're a year or so into your study. You can use the rules at that point to validate what you have observed in the language so far... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6778 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 4 of 8 07 September 2007 at 8:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm on the same page as Furyou Gaijin: do your best to understand the particles, but use your particle book to provide explanation of the Japanese you learn, instead of trying to pigeonhole the particles in your head too soon. Otherwise, you'll be encountering "exceptions" for a long time to come. :)
More specific to the topic, though: で is more for saying where actions and activities occur. に is more for saying where ongoing states exist. 住む "to live" is more like a state of being than an action, so it uses に. More distinctions: で indicates the means of carrying out an action. に indicates the purpose for carrying out an action. 車でピクニックに行く "go for a picnic by car" By the way, you can absolutely use で to indicate where you're smoking. The sofa is more of a thing than a place, though. :) Also, the definition you gave for に in your first post is more like the definition for へ. Edited by Captain Haddock on 07 September 2007 at 8:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Staccato Tetraglot Newbie United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6300 days ago 1 posts - 1 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese, Korean, Mandarin Studies: Hungarian | Message 5 of 8 07 September 2007 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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Japanese particles can often be very complicated, and do not necessarily follow consistent rules. To master the usage of particles, it mostly just takes getting used to it, by being exposed to it in actual contexts several thousands of times, until you get a "feel" for how each one works.
Let me stress that if you require a rule and reason for every word occurrence in Japanese, you are going to get nowhere fast. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Georgi87 Triglot Groupie Israel Joined 6311 days ago 43 posts - 44 votes Speaks: Russian*, English, French Studies: Japanese | Message 6 of 8 08 September 2007 at 1:11am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks yet again for your help, everyone。Useful advice, as always :)
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Guanche Hexaglot Senior Member Spain danielmarin.blogspot Joined 7056 days ago 168 posts - 178 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2, GermanC1, RussianB1, French, Japanese Studies: Greek, Mandarin, Arabic (Written) | Message 7 of 8 14 September 2007 at 7:42am | IP Logged | ||
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More on de/ni:
に(Ni): 1- always used with いる/ある (湖に人がいる), whenever ある means "to exist". 2- with other verbs that indicate "permanency" (住む, 残る). 3- destination, meaning "to"/"toward". Same as へ. 4- When meaning "on", as "getting on a vehicle" or "painting on the wall" (乗る, 入る, 上がる...) 5- to indicate a specific time (hours or years): 6時に起きた. Be careful, because に cannot be used with the days of the week or some adverbs, such as 明日, 今日, 来年, 最近,... で(de): 1- when indicating the place where a temporal action occurs (work, study: 働く, 務める, 勉強する...). It may be used with ある meaning "there is/are". 2- with time expressions you should use NI, but sometimes DE is preferred in order to emphasize a deadline or the period of time required to finsh an action (僕は一年でこの本を読んだ). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Monox D. I-Fly Senior Member Indonesia monoxdifly.iopc.us Joined 5145 days ago 762 posts - 664 votes Speaks: Indonesian* | Message 8 of 8 01 October 2016 at 2:55pm | IP Logged | ||
I tend to think simple: I translate those particles to words in general. を = is (indicating passive verbs in English) が = have に = to で = with 1 person has voted this message useful |
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