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Difficulty of spoken Japanese imaginary? | ||
Tags: Difficulty | Japanese | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| benzionisrael Triglot Groupie Spain Joined 4666 days ago 79 posts - 142 votes  Speaks: English*, Japanese, SpanishB2 | Message 1 of 37 27 April 2012 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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For those who speak or are learning Japanese, don´t you think the difficulty of spoken Japanese is something imaginary? In other words, a deceptive product of our own imagination?
Without a shadow of a doubt written Japanese is highly complex and truly difficult. Learning the 2000 plus Kanji is a major task for just about anyone who is not from the Chinese character sphere. Learning to read and write proficiently in Japanese is a task which takes several years of continuous study. The immensely complex writing system is the main reason why Japanese is classified as a difficult language and even as a level 4 language by the FSI difficulty ratings. But as for the everyday conversation part, is it really that difficult? Many learners seem to agree that it is very hard to achieve written proficiency in Japanese but fortunately it is not that difficult to speak the language. Even this forum itself states in the Japanese language profile that everyday oral fluency (everyday conversation) can be achieved with about a year of continuous study. The language has straightforward grammar. Nouns have no gender and don´t have a complex case system unlike many European languages. Adjectives don´t have to agree with nouns and therefore are simple to use. Adverbs are completely regular. Verbs don´t inflect according to person or number and the tenses are quite basic with very few overly elaborate constructions. Even the honorific verb forms are not that difficult to grasp for an intermediate learner. Therefore, don´t you think the difficulty of everday spoken Japanese is somewhat imaginary? By imaginary I mean that we are conditioned by our surrounding environment and our own experiences into believing that something that objectively is not that difficult is something of considerable difficulty. Both Japanese people and Westerners alike overrate the difficulty of the Japanese language. Ignorant Japanese people, who know nothing about linguistics, exaggerate the difficulty of their language and condescendingly believe that it will always be impossible for the ignorant and unjapanese "gaijin". Ignorant Westerners, who also don´t understand anything about linguistics, easily buy into the crap that those Japanese people spout. The ending result: we all imagine that spoken Japanese is really difficult (emphasis on the word "imagine"). I don´t mean to brag, but I have achieved a high level in Japanese. I have lived in Japan, studied at a decent Japanese university, passed JLPT level 1, understand more Kanji than most Japanese youngsters, etc. But I don´t have much confidance starting conversation with unknown people. I know that it is not a question of ability as I know the language well, but I always get the feeling that because I am not Japanese and I am not even Asian I am doing something out of normality, or in other words, sometime aberrant. For the Japanese, a European speaking Japanese is out of place. Therefore, when I start conversations with people I don´t know in public places I don´t feel at ease, I feel out of place, I get nervous easily and start to become really self-conscious. This never happens when I speak with my acquaintances however. Nor does it happen when I speak other languages (European languages). Therefore I believe that my anxieties and the insane difficulty ratings attributed by many learners are in fact products of our own imaginations and are a result of a combination of our own negative experiences and erroneous popular believe. Any thoughts on this topic? Edited by benzionisrael on 27 April 2012 at 2:08pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4702 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 2 of 37 27 April 2012 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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I just speak without thinking about it. So what, I sometimes use the Japanese language, but a German way to say things and it may sound a bit odd, but I'm usually understood.
The same is true for English, which is also not my mother tongue. There's actually no difference in how I treat them. However, getting to formulate thoughts in Japanese fluently is something that has to be trained more intensely than speaking English, as a German. But who cares really? Language is a tool for communication, and as long as communication is established, your job is done. Just don't overthink and you should be fine. There's always a better, more refined, more sophisticated way to say things in your mother tongue, too. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| benzionisrael Triglot Groupie Spain Joined 4666 days ago 79 posts - 142 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese, SpanishB2 | Message 3 of 37 27 April 2012 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | ||
The issue is not about formulating and expressing thoughts, it is about whether one feels that he/she fits in or not. I understand what you say though. I think in my case it is a mental thing. I should just recondition myself so that I learn to relax more. But since mental things are usually quite tricky, that is easier said than done. I rarely derive pleasure nowdays speaking to Japanese people because not being Japanese or Asian I often feel out of place as Japan is a rather exclusive society. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4702 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 4 of 37 27 April 2012 at 2:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm a caucasian. No matter how much I'd try, I'll never become a Japanese. While looks don't matter for English, I'll never become a native speaker of English either. Can't be helped. If I let that bother me, why learn a language in the first place?
Yes, I think it's completely mental. I only use Japanese with friends or friends of friends, very rarely with strangers, so you could say it's pretty hard to fit in to "MY uchi" as well, for any outsider, even the most Japanese Japanese person alive. ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 5 of 37 27 April 2012 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | ||
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No offence, but you lived in Japan and went a Japanese university. Perhaps you aren't in a position to tell learners outside of the country how easy it is.
Whenever I visit conversation groups, the difference between how at ease learners of German or Spanish who haven't lived abroad are in comparison to learners of Japanese is striking. There's a good reason. Speaking a language is not much different from knowing it and reading it or writing it, it's just that it requires the extra active step. Remove kanji if you want, but if Japanese is a difficult language to read (even with furigana) or to write, then it's still a difficult language to speak. Since it's not a cognate language, it's definitely harder to speak it if you aren't living in the country. I never lived in Japan, but I visited twice for a total of 5 weeks and always felt at ease speaking with Japanese people. I always felt that they valued the effort I made and I never felt out of place. Maybe it's a matter of confidence. Nevertheless, I'm not saying it's harder because of some psychological preconception. Also, I can pretty confidently say that I spoke German and Spanish at my Japanese level in much less time (probably a third). I think you're simply at a stage where you can look back and say "I can't believe I thought it was hard". 12 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4702 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 6 of 37 27 April 2012 at 5:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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I was on Skype yesterday and somehow couldn't remember ６ヶ月. Instead ６時間 slipped out. I said ちょっと待って、今日日本語が出ない (gimme a second..), then thought a bit and said it properly.
This kind of black out only happens in Japanese for me, but my Japanese is also worse than my English is. I also tend to use fillers like 実は、例えば、そういえば、何か、ええと、 あの more often to slow the convo down for me to come up with whatever I try to say. I remember I wanted to say 天気 one day, but said 狼. Both are not related in ANY way, but it happened, no idea why. Grammar is a "lesser beast" really. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5767 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 7 of 37 27 April 2012 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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Grammar? Nah. Pronunciation? Nah. Vocabulary? Nah. Register? Closer. Being able to define the relationship between yourself and the listener and appropriately refer to the relationship between either of you or a third person and someone else? That's more like it; that's what makes talking in Japanese difficult for me, as my usual tactic, imitating my conversation partner, doesn't work for many situations.
3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Ellsworth Senior Member United States Joined 4958 days ago 345 posts - 528 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Swedish, Finnish, Icelandic, Irish | Message 8 of 37 28 April 2012 at 12:31am | IP Logged | ||
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How difficult do you think it is to master the pitch accent system? It seems highly
irregular as well as being unwritten in most grammars and dictionaries. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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