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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6448 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes  Studies: German | Message 9 of 53 04 October 2010 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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Croats and Serbs will naturally refer to their language as Croatian or Serbian, this is nothing new or artificial. They may from time to time agree that it's all the same (often referring to mutual intelligibility). They may be ok with Serbocroatian. That's not such a big deal. However, you certainly won't make many friends by claiming that someone's language is a fiction. These claims and variation on this theme are extremely political in nature and often lead to the thesis that Croats don't really exist (or that most Croats are really Serbs) and that's about as refined as shouting the n word. I would not call this being overly sensitive. Political claims of this nature disguised as linguistics are invariably one-sided and aimed to stir trouble. Stokavian is stokavian in relation to kajkavian and cakavian which are Croatian. Serbs have neither, so you could argue that Serbian is not stokavian. That's, for change, some bull from the other side. Montenegrin is a separate story and I'll let you tell it any way you like.
Edited by reineke on 04 October 2010 at 2:04pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5274 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 10 of 53 04 October 2010 at 3:17pm | IP Logged | ||
You can think what you like. The Eastern Herzegovina dialect is predominantly spoken by Serbs and Muslims and originates, as the name might imply, from Eastern Herzegovina. It is the basis of the official literary standard in Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Montenegro, although in Serbia the ekavian Belgrade speech is the de facto standard. It was chosen by Yugoslav linguists (yes, there were Croats among them!) because it was so widespread. And it was widespread because it was brought over to Croatia and northern Bosnia by Serb refugee migrations originating from Herzegovina, the Drina River valley, Montenegro, and western Serbia during the days of the Ottoman empire. This is not "nationalism" - it is quite simply history. Pull out a map of Stokavian dialects and an ethnic map of ex-Yugoslavia in 1990 and you will understand what I mean. Perhaps things have changed and it is now the Zagreb speech that is the de facto standard in Croatia. I don't pretend to know. All I do know is that Zagreb is smack dab in the middle of Kajkavian territory, so your last claim of it being the epicenter of the Stokavian dialect (it's not just not the epicenter, it's not even the periphery, it is quite literally outside of the Stokavian dialect zone) is downright nonsense. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5274 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 11 of 53 04 October 2010 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | ||
I never made that thesis. I never de-legitimized ethnic groups or their very existence. But then again, that doesn't mean we need to accept languages that don't exist. Montenegrin doesn't exist. The Croatian language, as such, is based on a dialect originating amongst the Serbs (and Muslims) of eastern Herzegovina. There are actually three Croatian languages - Kajkavian, Cakavian, and Stokavian, and there are many subdialects of Stokavian in Croatia (not just eastern Herzegovinian, but also western Ikavian, Slavonian, etc.). They could have chosen any one of these languages and/or dialects. It just so happens that they chose the one that was brought to Croatia by foreign refugees fleeing the Ottoman empire. That is a historical fact. It doesn't mean that Croats don't exist, that they are fake, etc. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6448 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 12 of 53 04 October 2010 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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You will find several definitions, based on affiliations. Enjoy.
Opinions of linguists in former Yugoslavia diverge. The majority of mainstream Serbian linguists considers Serbo-Croatian to be still one language with two variants. Also, the majority of Serbian linguists thinks that Serbo-Croatian is essentially a Serbian-based language. A minority among Serbian linguists is of the opinion that Serbo-Croatian had existed, but has, in the meantime, dissolved. A small minority avers that there never existed "Serbo-Croatian" language and that this designates a Croatian variant of the Serbian language. The majority of Croatian linguists thinks that there was never anything like unified Serbo-Croatian language, but two different standard languages that overlapped sometimes in the course of history. Also, they claim that no language has ever dissolved since there was no Serbo-Croatian standard language. A minority of Croatian linguists deny that Croatian standard language is based on the neo-štokavian dialect; also, another minority of Croatian linguists claims that Serbian language is an offshoot of Croatian since as a system of dialects it is a subset of the Croatian system of dialects. The majority of Bosniak linguists considers that the Serbo-Croatian language still exists and that it is based on the Bosnian idiom, so that proper name would be "Bosnian language". A minority of Bosniak linguists thinks that Croats and Serbs have, historically, "misappropriated" Bosnian language for their political and cultural agenda. Ethnic affiliation of native speakers of Štokavian dialect During the 1st half of the 19th century, protagonists of nascent Slavic philology were, as far as South Slavic dialects were concerned, embroiled in frequently bitter polemic about "ethnic affiliation" of native speakers of various dialects. This, from contemporary point of view, rather bizarre obsession was motivated primarily by political and national interests that prompted philologists-turned-ideologues to express their views on the subject. The most prominent contenders in the squabble, with conflicting agenda, were Czech philologist Josef Dobrovský, Slovak Pavel Šafárik, Slovene Jernej Kopitar and Franc Miklošič, Serb Vuk Karadžić and Croatian Bogoslav Šulek and Vatroslav Jagić. Essentially, the dispute was about who can, philologically, be labelled as "Slovene", "Croat" and "Serb" with the very mundane aim of expanding one's national territory and influence. Born in the climate of romanticism and national awakening, these polemical "battles" only succeeded in poisoning relations between the aforementioned nations, especially because the Štokavian dialect cannot be split along ethnic lines. Wikipedia - whatever Edited by reineke on 04 October 2010 at 5:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5274 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 13 of 53 04 October 2010 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | ||
Nice retraction. Quoting wikipedia and then reducing it to this. Just the facts: Stokavian map Ethnic map Also from wikipedia, which you seem to admire: Eastern Herzegovinian Dialect The Eastern Herzegovinian dialect (Serbo-Croatian: istočnohercegovački or istočnohercegovačko-krajiški) is the most widespread dialect of the Štokavian dialect system, both by territory and the number of speakers. It is the most prestigious of all Serbo-Croatian dialects, being the dialectal basis for all modern literary Serbo-Croatian variants: Bosnian language, Croatian language, Serbian language and Montenegrin language (this latter is codified only partially). It covers large areas of Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia and Montenegro. It is composed of two larger zones that are territorially separated: Southeastern zone, where it originated from (eastern Herzegovina, western Monte Negro, western Serbia, eastern Bosnia, Posavinan Podrinje) Northwestern zone (western and northwestern Bosnia, northern Dalmatia with Gorski Kotar, narrower strips of Croatia, parts of Slavonia and Baranja, White Carniola and Žumberak) As can be seen from the map, the southeastern zone is territorially compact and continuous, while the northwestern zone is broken, discontinuous and interspersed with areas where other Štokavian dialects are spoken. Being spoken on such a large area, this dialect comes into contact with all of the dialects of the Štokavian diasystem apart from the dialects of Prizren-Timok zone, and also on northwest with the dialects of two other Western South Slavic diasystems: Čakavian and Kajkavian. It is also spoken in a few enclaves on Čakavian and Kajkavian areas, and in several contact points it borders with Slovenian dialects. On the north it borders with Hungary, where it is also spoken in a few enclaves along the border near Danube, as well as on the outskirts of Budapest.[1] On the south this dialect covers the area between the river of Neretva and River Dubrovačka inlet, the area of Dubrovnik and Dubrovnikan littoral, eastern half of the Pelješac peninsula, the island of Mljet, Konavle and Herzegovinian area, along the Adriatic cost all the way to Risno in the Bay of Kotor. On the territory of modern Monte Negro it covers Montenegrin (Old) Herzegovina with Grahovo, northern Plješivica, Župa, Lukovo, Drobnjaci, Uskoci, Rovci, Kolašin and Morača.[2] During the turbulent period of Bosnian war 1992-1995, marked by large-scale migrations of the native population, Eastern Herzegovinian speeches have spread significantly on the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina. During the Croatian War of Independence 1991-1995 however, the number of Eastern Herzegovinian speakers significantly dropped, following the exodus of some 300,000 Croatian Serbs all of which spoke the dialect. In the post war-period, as the refugees return to their homes, number of speakers at the territory of Croatia has been increasing steadily.[3] 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6448 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 14 of 53 04 October 2010 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | ||
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On the south this dialect covers the area between the river of Neretva and River Dubrovačka inlet, the area of Dubrovnik and Dubrovnikan littoral, eastern half of the Pelješac peninsula, the island of Mljet, Konavle and Herzegovinian area, along the Adriatic cost all the way to Risno in the Bay of Kotor.
This is Croatian area and where some of the oldest and certainly most valuable literature was written. Based on ethnic boundaries your arguments are bogus. The first stokavian grammar, which is also considered as the first Croatian grammar, was written by a Croatian. The language was called Servian, Croatian, Illyrian and Bosnian by many Croats. People were very liberal with these names, maybe we can learn something from them. Some of the first panslavists were Croatians. Of course this is nowadays used very selectively to serve particular agendas. Edited by reineke on 04 October 2010 at 6:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6944 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 15 of 53 04 October 2010 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | ||
I am confused. "X and the rest of Croatia" presumably means Croatia. What they speak there must be Croatian, unless Croatian is only spoken outside Croatia. What they speak there is not prestigious. Therefore, Croatian is not prestigious. Therefore, one should not be learning Croatian. And yet, one can buy textbooks in English that purport to teach "Croatian". What am I missing here? Edited by frenkeld on 04 October 2010 at 8:02pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5449 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 16 of 53 04 October 2010 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | ||
What you are missing is growing up on Balkan (or at least in a B/C/M/S family). Then you would understand :). Now seriously, why is it so freaken hard to accept that languages are not linguistic subject only? They are also political and historical subjects. From the language learning point of view - if you learn one of the BCMS languages, you will understand and be understood in all. From the political point of view, yes, there are Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and, from recently, Montenegrin. What's the big deal about that? 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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