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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6448 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes  Studies: German | Message 41 of 53 05 October 2010 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | ||
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Prominent Dubrovnik families etc. That was politics, as always and very quickly settled in the 19th ct. The common people and most other prominent families felt Croatian. Dubrovnik is important because although being "fringe" on the map it is of major cultural influence. Croatians are sensitive about the subject because it is a major cultural center in Croatia and because most of the newly rehashed theses about how Dubrovnik was really Serbian were published as it was being bombed. The city was spared by both the Allies and Nazis in WWII.
Zagreb's kajkavian city speech is sometimes reduced to occasionally saying "kaj" for what and using a few expressions. Sometimes it's a bit more but it's no Naples or even Rome. Both kajkavian and cakavian have literary traditions and are considered part of Croatian heritage and literature. There's nothing non-prestige about them. There is nothing prestige about common stokavian speech. Croatia has 99% literacy, everyone goes to high school, the media are in standard Croatian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajkavian_dialect That article mentions kajkavian as "prestige". Whatever. Low-level stokavian speech may use all the right words and constructions but not in a very cultured manner. Educated and even poorly educated native speakers of Croatian can change registers. Standard Croatian is everywhere. In some situations, you might feel like using a regionalism to signal you're local or just to connect better. The words may add to a couple of dozen expressions, especially so among guys. Or you can use standard Croatian only. Edited by reineke on 05 October 2010 at 4:48pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5274 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 42 of 53 05 October 2010 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | ||
Well, they can be as sensitive as they like. I don't deny them the right to consider themselves whatever they like. But facts are facts and medieval Croatia never reached even close to Dubrovnik, and the incorporation of Catholic Serbs and Dalmatian Latins in this area into the Croatian nation, via the efforts of the Catholic church or Austria- Hungary, is a well known fact. I've digressed quite a bit. Let me just say that it isn't prudent for a foreigner wanting to speak with the greatest number of people in ex-Yugoslavia (or Montenegro, for that matter) to start with Kajkavian or Kajkavian- influenced Stokavian. That's not nationalism, it's just reality. Likewise, I would never recommend someone wanting to learn Serbian to pick up the speech of Leskovac and Vranje. Yes, they speak "standard Serbian" in those places, but you'll be getting a ton of Torlakian influences that you wouldn't get in places like Belgrade or Novi Sad. I'll leave it at that. Edited by Merv on 05 October 2010 at 3:48pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6448 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 43 of 53 05 October 2010 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have felt surprised reactions about Bosnian and Montenegrin from both sides. I would
say that some Serbs might feel especially miffed about Montenegrin. Some Montenegrins might not be too happy with the new official name either. It's a special story. Croatians have called their language Croatian for a long while, this is not a new political construct but it gets referred to as such as people work through their reactions about the recent events. Croatians have indeed interfered with the language on a couple of occasions, reviving some old Croatian expressions vs. those that are shared with Serbian. They laughed at a few then ended up using them, others will not stick. What stays is Croatian, what doesn't is a failed attempt to reintroduce a historical expression. Serbs are sometimes sensitive about the subject because one such reform coincided with WWII. I believe people should be allowed to call their common language as they see fit. If they had settled on Serbocroatian, Croatians can easily live with *serbo* as it has full "Croatian" in it. If you say it real quick, it sounds like turboCroatian. What would not be appreciated is if Serbocroatian mysteriously became Serbian. What's also not appreciated are outsiders proscribing what one's mother tongue is and what it isn't. What's in a name? Apparently quite a lot. Of course, what may happen is that Serbia and Croatia will stick with their languages and names (which are both quite ancient) and most people will continue calling their languages Serbian and Croatian. Serbs are not English and Croatians are not Americans. That's a silly argument. Croatian Panslavists go way back in history. In the 17th ct. one ventured into Russia and was sent for a while to Siberia :) 19th ct. Croatian Panslavists may have been idealists or, as Merv suggests, opportunistic. It's all water under the bridge. Serbs were historically more unified, and when Serbia fell to the Turks, they were unified by dire necessity. Croatia was fragmented since the Middle Ages, some cities enjoyed freedoms or were independent in the Italian fashion. This resulted in all sorts of meanderings about language and nationhood. Dubrovnik... Thanks Merv, that bit about Catholic Serbs was real classy. Many Croats particularly enjoyed listening to Serb nationalists rave about the cradle of Serbian culture. It remains a mystery why they bombed the hell out of it. Edited by reineke on 05 October 2010 at 4:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5274 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 44 of 53 05 October 2010 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | ||
Yes, it's call WWII korijenski pravopis (root orthography) and is just another piece of the mosaic of the Croatian language. Curious how much top-down tampering that particular language has taken, from the Croatian Illyrianist circles to the NDH to the modern linguists. All actively at work, modifying, borrowing, rejecting, etc. and then teaching each new generation of Croats that this is the new "real" language. Croats can call their language whatever they want. I just find it curious that they call a language based on a dialect brought into Croatia by Herzegovinian and Montenegrin Serb refugees "Croatian." Indeed, I'm rather surprised they haven't yet switched to Cakavian as the standard, since it's the most different from both Serbian and Slovenian. No mystery at all. When Croatian rebels, many of them wearing =U= signs, attacked the JNA Navy at the Boka Kotorska in Montenegro and then later used Dubrovnik's historical buildings to attack the JNA navy that had chased them up the coast, they got a retaliation. Don't play this game with me. This is not a political forum, it's a language forum and I think it is eminently reasonable to discuss the origins of various dialects from the historic perspective, without going into the sort of snidely provocative commentary you like to engage in. Enough with the envelope pushing. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6448 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 45 of 53 05 October 2010 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for that too. Boka Kotorska is miles away and they had jack to attack it with. Thanks for calling me to order. Bye.
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| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5274 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 46 of 53 05 October 2010 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | ||
Yawn. Sell those lies to some other dupe. Austria, Germany, and Hungary were shipping weapons into Croatia long before the war broke out. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6944 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 47 of 53 05 October 2010 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | ||
As a rather disinterested outsider (why learn BCSM at all when you can learn Russian instead?), I can tell you that I didn't find your posts to be free of bias. Nevertheless, your posts made me appreciate the good fortune of not being from the region, so it was worth reading them in the end. Edited by frenkeld on 05 October 2010 at 5:22pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7157 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 48 of 53 05 October 2010 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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The trouble is Merv is that Serbs do not "own" Shtokavian Ijekavian like you and I would own a car. There's nothing inherently strange about standard Croatian being based on Shtokavian Ijekavian, and to insinuate that somehow the Croats are in the wrong for using something that appeared within their communities relatively late in history is a red herring. The talk of "Catholic Serbs" is as helpful as saying that Serbs are "Orthodox Croats" or "Orthodox Bosniaks", or Bosniaks being "Muslim Croats" or "Muslim Serbs".
Put it this way, if the goal had truly been for standardization efforts of Serbo-Croatian to maximize differences and strengthen the case of Bosnian, Croatian, Monenegrin and Serbian to be different languages without as much political or sociolinguistic judgment then I would have proposed the following path: 1) Bosnian (use Eastern Bosnian which is Old-Shtokavian Jekavian-Šćkavian) 2) Croatian (use Southern Chakavian which is also Ikavian) 3) Montenegrin (use Zeta-Southern Sandžak which is Old-Shtokavian Ijekavian) 4) Serbian (use Šumadija-Vojvodina which is Neo-Shtokavian Ekavian OR Kosovo-Resava which is Old-Shtokavian Ekavian) But as we all know, planners and intellectuals used Eastern Herzegovinian because of its spread and there are just enough people declaring themselves each as Bosnians, Croats, Montengerins or Serbs who natively speak this sub-dialect. It's a bit like four kids surrounding a toy and then each kid laying his/her hand on it. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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