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Rude or polite in foreign languages | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5335 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 1 of 28 01 November 2013 at 11:34am | IP Logged | ||
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Yesterday I was reading through a blog written by one of my colleagues who had gone (on his bike!)from Oslo through Sweden, Belorussia, Ukraine, Russia, Kazakhstan, China, Cambodia, and Vietnam (and probably some more too, but those are the ones I can remember off the top of my head). He had learned a bit of Russian before he left - which turned out to be a life saviour in a lot of these countries - but one thing he mentioned struck a cord. He said that whenever he got to a hotel, he would be received rather rudely with a" What do you want!" No "How may I help you?" or "What can I do for you?, What would you like this evening, Sir?".
In a Norwegian - and I assume American/Western European tradition, "What do you want" would be perceived as rude and unfriendly, but it suddenly struck me, that it might not be in Russian, which is a much more straight forward language. Is what we perceive as rudeness, based on our language tradition, simply the normal and polite thing to say in Russian? I tried to explain a similar case between Norwegian and English to an English speaking friend of mine living in Norway, without success, but perhaps you know of more examples? My friend was complaining, that the staff of the kindergarten was very unhelpfull when it came to teach her son to use "please" whenever he asked for something. I tried to explain to her that they were not unhelpful, but correct. If a child wants something in Norway, he is taught to say "May I have", and not "Give me" or "I want". But you do not put a "please" in that sentence. The "may" is as polite as it gets. You could in theory say "Would you please be so kind as to give me" - but you will not find a 5-year old in his right mind using that phrase. I might use it, as an adult, if I really really want to go out of my way to be polite in a very formal setting, but a child would not. Some children do use a phrase similar to "may I please have" but that is actually incorrect in Norwegian, so the staff were just doing their job properly. But my friend kept repeating, "But I want him to be polite, I want him to use please". "BUT IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! We did not get to an understanding. So what I wonder is this: - Are we misjudging the Russians (and possibly others with a Slavic language background) as impolite, simply because the language is more straightforward? - Do you know other examples of structures that come off as rude in one language but are perfectly ok. in another one? - How do you meet cases like the "What do you want"? in the best way? I have to admit that when I get to a hotel where they ask me that question, I feel an overwhelming urge to answer either "A dinosaur with hot chocolate sauce please, or "I am in a hotel, it is late at night, what do you think I want!" Obviously I always supress such feelings, and try to be doubly polite to the person who asked. I have this little game with myself to be so polite to people that are impolite that they give up, and are polite back. I usually win :-) But if you have other, better ways of responding, I am all ears. Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 01 November 2013 at 11:36am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 2 of 28 01 November 2013 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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I prefer the Russian tradition. Less bullshit, more to the point. I can't stand the
fake smiles "what would you like this evening sir", makes me feel like I'm being lied to. "Здравствуйте, чем могу помочь" is more than good enough for politeness, что хотите alsoworks for me. In these cases I just read less into any hidden contexts and take the question for what it is. That is also how I tend to prefer to speak myself, because I hate double insinuations and contexts (I never understand those hints anyways). And I just don't say please like ever but that is because saying it often in Dutch (like in Norwegian) sounds really weird. I think the point is though that the Russian concept of "polite" does not necessarily have to coincide with the "Norwegian" or the "American" conception. Don't expect it either. When in Russia, do as the Russians do... Edited by tarvos on 01 November 2013 at 1:43pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 3 of 28 01 November 2013 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yeah, I definitely need to consciously remind myself that many things are not polite in English :-) Or Finnish, for that matter. it took me so long to learn to add "kiitos" when rejecting things! "no, thanks" - thanks for what exactly?
And I'm surprised neither of you mentioned this yet: the polite forms normally contain more complicated grammar, like the subjunctive, modal verbs etc. Hm, is it rude not to wait until you are asked what you want? In hotels, I generally greet the receptionists and get straight to the point - "hello, we have a reservation", "hello, can you please call a taxi?" etc. If you tell them what you want, you won't hear the dreaded question :D Also, be careful with being "double polite", unless you are sure that the person is really being impolite to you. If they say "what do you want" because they can't say it properly, chances are they'll also find your "would you be so kind as to..." difficult to understand. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 4 of 28 01 November 2013 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | ||
This. Why not take the initiative? The boots are on the other pair of feet now, yeah... 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4623 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 5 of 28 01 November 2013 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | ||
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Years ago in the UK, all MacDonalds staff greeted you with "may I help you please?"
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 6 of 28 01 November 2013 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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But any idea if it's considered more polite to go through the "can i help you" ritual? I'd assume that receptionists etc generally also want it to be over asap, and apart from politeness, they also say this to break the ice and to get you talking and get at least a hint of what you want from them. They say this to help you figure out what exactly they can do for you, so if you know this from the beginning there's no need for that?
Also funny how I find "can I help you" irritating. I want to say "no, my team lost a match, you can't help me" or "no, Sapkowski decided to kill that awesome character" (and imagine if I ever read ASOIAF....) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 7 of 28 01 November 2013 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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It seems to me that we are dealing with a question of cross-cultural pragmatics. Languages have different ways of
encoding things like social etiquette. Some languages may not have a word for please but that does not mean that people are less polite. Politeness may be expressed more in the title used when addressing the person. For example, there is a big difference between the use of TU and VOUS pronouns form between Quebec and France. Basically, the Quebecois use TU more readily than Europeans. This can often sound impolite and even condescending to visitors from France, but it does not mean that people are more impolite in Quebec. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| SnowManR1 Groupie United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5489 days ago 53 posts - 95 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew | Message 8 of 28 01 November 2013 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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As a native to North Carolina and with English as my mother tongue its considered very rude to say, "I want...". Here we're brought up to say, "I would like..., please" or "May I have...". When we use "May" the word "please" is usually ommitted, because of how formal it comes across. Plus, we always say "thank you" whether the outcome was bad or good. "Thank you" for good and "Thanks anyhow" for bad.
In my house if you want something you say please and when you get what you want you say thank you. With my limited experience in Hebrew, if someone says "I want" its considered normal. I'm not even sure "I would like" exists. They're fairly straight forward, which is weird for me given my Southern background. However, they usually say "please" and "thank you". 1 person has voted this message useful |
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