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Adult immersion | ||
Tags: Immersion | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4620 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 1 of 10 12 November 2013 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | ||
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It seems to be relatively common for children to undergo "immersion" experiences in language. Typically this would involve moving to a new country and being thrown into a school environment where they knew little of the language, but would just be expected to get on with it. The experts tell us that kids can be up and running in a new language within 2 years but more abstract academic skills can take longer to develop.
This leads to the widely-held belief (in society) that children are better at learning languages than adults. But my question is, how often do adults undergo a similar immersion experience? I know several people who studied language X and went to work in a country where it was spoken. People who went abroad not knowing the local language but who chose to live in an immigrant community (or going to a country where their own native tongue was widely understood). Also people who were very hesitant in the new language but initially had a job where they could speak their native language (my wife for instance, in her case she also had flatmates from her own country) None of that really equals cold immersion. I only know one person who was truly chucked in at the deep end as an adult. A female friend of mine left Russia at the age of 18 for Germany, following the collapse of the Soviet Union. She had Volga-German heritage and was granted citizenship, but she didn't know the German language, nor did she have any English to fall back on. She was married at the time but her Russian husband quickly absconded, leaving her alone in a country where she knew nothing of the language, forcing her to seek menial work. Some 15 years later she now works in international commerce, has a German partner and easily speaks at C2 level. Her written output is probably C1 because she was never formally taught. So I think adults can adapt quickly when they have no other choice. Kids also have the advantage of being constantly corrected whereas people are warier of doing that with an adult in case it causes offence. Edited by beano on 12 November 2013 at 4:38pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5530 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 10 12 November 2013 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | ||
I knew a woman who spent a school year in Sweden when she was 16 or 17, and who arrived knowing nothing. That's old enough to be past the hypothesized changes that occur around age 5 and later at the onset of puberty. And she came home able to "speak Swedish," though that could really mean anything from a conversationally-fluent B1 up. This is pretty common among older teenagers. Adults usually don't dive into full immersion without knowing something. But I know a French woman who studied English in school, then moved to Scandinavia for 6 months, and then got a research job in the US. When she arrived in the US, she was a pretty solid B2, but I still had to speak a bit slowly and explain any weird idioms, and she needed subtitles on some TV series. Several years later, she was fully socially and professionally fluent, but with an accent she retains to this day. If she makes preposition errors, they're so rare that my ear can't catch them, and I pay attention to that stuff. And as far as I know, she never "studied" English after arriving in the US. I could find lots of other PhDs and postdocs at the local university who fall into the same category: They studied to somewhere around B2, moved to the US, never opened another textbook, and did just fine. The only problem that many of them face is that if they don't read lots of English fiction, they're still weak when it comes to formal writing. And thanks to all these researchers, I'm told that something like half the toddlers in one of the local day care centers are bilingual, and one local high school class of 20 people knew 12 languages between them. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| doubleUelle Bilingual Tetraglot Groupie United States Joined 4033 days ago 67 posts - 95 votes Speaks: English*, Russian*, French, Japanese Studies: Spanish, Thai | Message 3 of 10 12 November 2013 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think that people in general tend to underestimate the plasticity of the adult brain.
We are constantly relying on input from the environment around us - we're not as "set in our ways" as we imagine. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| eetusjo Diglot Newbie Finland Joined 4256 days ago 7 posts - 15 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Swedish | Message 4 of 10 12 November 2013 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | ||
I had a similar experience a couple of years ago, at the age of 17 when I left for Switzerland and lived a year in Zürich. It was a normal student exchange which means I was placed in a school etc. I came back to Finland and passed a B2 exam in German. The only "formal" training I had during the year was a month-long intensive course I visited upon the arrival. Edited by eetusjo on 12 November 2013 at 5:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| aokoye Diglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5539 days ago 235 posts - 453 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Dutch, Norwegian, Japanese | Message 5 of 10 12 November 2013 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | ||
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While I do believe that the brains of children are more receptive to learning a second,
third, etc language than the brain of an adult, I also think that it is fairly illogical to say that adults can't learn to speak (read, write, etc) languages at high levels. As far as times when adults get immersed in a new language - the easiest example to me would be an adult who is speaking/has been granted asylum in a country where the language(s) spoken isn't one that they already know. Other examples would be people who move to different countries for work (including spouses) and people who get married and move to the country that their spouse has citizenship in. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Stelle Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada tobefluent.com Joined 4142 days ago 949 posts - 1686 votes Speaks: French*, English*, Spanish Studies: Tagalog | Message 6 of 10 13 November 2013 at 2:36am | IP Logged | ||
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While not true immersion, I've taught "immersion" classes to both adults and children. (In this case, immersion = 6+
class hours per day for 9-10 months) After a year, most of my adults are at a B2 level. Children - not so much. They advance quickly, of course, but I definitely think that a focused adult learns languages more quickly than a child. One of the main differences is that children are far more comfortable with not understanding and making mistakes, whereas adults have a tendency to get frustrated and be much more critical of themselves. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4442 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 7 of 10 13 November 2013 at 8:50am | IP Logged | ||
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I know somebody who is Chinese descent and studied Japanese for a few years. He is working F/T and spending
regular hours at the office. When he left he would head straight for class. In a few years he became fluent enough to write an university entrance exam. And he also travels frequently to Japan from HK. Basically the difference between Chinese & Japanese is that they are grammatically different but at the same time share many of the same characters. Like you are learning French as an English speaker. There are many words in English that came from French. The man had 1 advantage that is common among people in this generation that he has chosen not to get marry and have a family. Personally I think part of the reason we often think of children as better learners is that fact that they have fewer responsibilities than we (the older adults) do. Some kids would be watching a few hours of TV after school when there isn't a lot of homework. But people who are already working F/T and choose to have a family have to juggle with responsibilities every week including cooking, laundry, taking the kids to school. Even if we wanted to many of us would have to wait for the kids to leave home before we have any free time to pursuit other interests. The problem is not as simple as intelligence but a more practical issue of finding time. In this part of the world even belonging to the Chinese community most people would have get-togethers as extended family like we're living in Asia. However, many of us would be communicating in English. This is partly the expectation of parents that they don't have time to teach kids to be fluent in the mother-tongue. And kids don't necessarily like to be enrolled in Chinese classes on weekends. Many of my family members learned a few characters when they were younger. Now that they are working I'm one of the few who can still write fluently. It was a conscious decision a few years ago to spend more time listening to news and watching programs in Chinese. Working F/T on the computer time is not on my side. The news programs that I'd normally watch in English I would cut in half and watch the other half in Chinese. In other words there are only 24h in a day. When you get older you wish the day is longer like there is never enough time to get everything done. Edited by shk00design on 13 November 2013 at 8:56am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 8 of 10 13 November 2013 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think that it's pretty self-evident that a combination of living in a language, being forced to use it and having a
desire to learn it will produce great results in adults. Serious observers do not say that adults cannot learn languages. What they say is more like a) native-like pronunciation is rare in adult learners and b) children learn languages more easily and quickly than adults. One has to look at the social environment of language learning. Is it really surprising that young PhD students coming to universities in North America end up speaking excellent English but Mexican immigrants working in menial jobs never get very far in English? What I find really astounding is the fact that in many places people don't really learn the language spoken around them. We see this in expat communities all the time. Even where I live there is a young cashier at a supermarket who does not speak any French and has not shown any interest in even learning to say the numbers in French. And this is in a French-speaking province. Actually, I fault the management of the store for even letting this person work at the cash. 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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