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Decoding the Riddle, Mystery, and Enigma | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| jedimindtrick Diglot Groupie United States 8monthsinukrain Joined 5220 days ago 90 posts - 119 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 17 of 92 18 August 2010 at 3:56am | IP Logged |
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I wanted to give a review of a book I just finished. The book is called “How to Learn Languages and What Languages to Learn” and it was written by Mario Pei, a linguist/polyglot from the early half of the century. It is an old book- published in 1973- which makes some of it quaintly outdated. For example, he advises readers to be sure their dictionary has recent words such as “laser” and “fallout” (probably of the nuclear kind) and not to be shocked “at seeing whites and Negroes together in public places...in Europe.” Yeah, it's that old. Anyways, that aside, it is a serious but interesting read for someone who is dedicated to the study of language...meaning it was a little rigorous for me, since I'm not that into linguistics.
Part I (14 chapters) deals with the “how to learn” and Part II “what languages to learn.” For Pei, everything comes down to the traditional method (grammar-translation) vs. the “new” audio-lingual method (listening and speaking). He goes into great detail over the pros and cons of both, but ends the book (Appendix II) with a study that claims after 2 years the results are more or less equal with both methods. Here are a couple of my favorite tips and ideas (my comment are in italics): - Inhibitions are of absolutely no use in language learning. The way to understand is to start listening. The way to speak is to start speaking. So simple and so true, but so many of us want a magic pill that works 'in only 10 days!' or 'while you sleep!' - Someday a genius will create a set of language records that will work like a transistor pocket radio, and that you can transport with you and use at will, anywhere. (thank you, ipod!!) - Pei's response when a learner asks him “But how long will it take me to learn this language!??” ….the story of a Greek sage who was met on the public highway by a stranger who asked him: “How long with it take me to get to Athens?” “Get going!” replied the sage. The puzzled stranger repeated his question, but got the same answer. He then shrugged his shoulders and went on his way, thinking that all Athenians were either mad or boors. But he had not proceeded twenty steps when the sage called out after him: “It will take you about two hours to get to the city.” Even more puzzled, the stranger turned back and asked the sage: “Why didn't you tell me that when I first asked you?” “I had to see how fast you could walk before I could give you the right answer,” replied the sage. - The following are from the section on 'The Problems of Learning English'. I'm glad this is one language I've already got down! “What are we having for dinner, Mother?” vs. “What are we having for dinner, liver?” Also, “Police police police poll,” meaning that the police policed a poll dealing with the police themselves which is a weird sentence that we probably wouldn't say but still, it's correct! - From Appendix II: What to Do and What Not to Do in a Foreign Country: If you must have home conditions, then there is no place like home, and you should stay there. - In the absolute, there is no such thing as a “good” or “bad” method, a “correct” or “incorrect” method for learning a language. There is only an effective and an ineffective method, for you as an individual, and for the purpose to which you want to put what you are learning. - And finally, the one piece of advice that touched me the most- Realize, however, that under any circumstances you will probably never speak quite like a native, or be mistaken for one... this came right at the beginning of the book and at first read, I found it really disheartening. Who doesn't want to hope they'll be brilliant and speak a new language as fluently as their native language? But after thinking more about it I realized- hey, it's true and it's not the end of the world. I think there is a point of “good enough.” Case in point-my жених (fiancé) speaks English fluently, as well or better than many of my American friends. But of course, every once in a while he makes some little slip-up which of course, annoys him. But what do we-the native speakers think of it? A) We think it's cute and feel flattered that he is “accommodating” us by learning “our” language and B) He must be awfully smart to have learned it so well. Isn't that true? Aren't native speakers *usually* quite enchanted by your attempts, whether you're a beginner or an advanced speaker? It can be frustrating personally to make mistakes but oh well. Right now I am thinking to myself- I will never be mistaken for a Russian by a Russian but that. is. okay. That's not what matters- what matters now is that I can communicate. No one will think any less of me just because I don't decline things perfectly. Edited by jedimindtrick on 18 August 2010 at 3:58am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |
| kraft Newbie Russian Federation Joined 5224 days ago 34 posts - 45 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 18 of 92 18 August 2010 at 10:17am | IP Logged |
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It is an usual phrase. Examples for “я буду ехать...” are: Я буду ехать три часа/(в течение трёх часов) в Москву. Я буду ехать в поезде, когда вы получите письмо. Я буду ехать в Америку, когда/(в то время как) вы будете думать обо мне.
Тут везде показана длительность процесса, в двух последних примерах-связь с другим (одномоментным или длительным) действием соответственно. Edited by kraft on 18 August 2010 at 6:52pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| jedimindtrick Diglot Groupie United States 8monthsinukrain Joined 5220 days ago 90 posts - 119 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 19 of 92 19 August 2010 at 8:45am | IP Logged |
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Kraft, thanks for getting back to me with those examples. I think I'm getting it a little. Like you and Clang wrote before, Я буду ехать means I will be going vs. Я поеду is more like I will go....
I think this is the last on this subject that I'll ask (for now) before this conversation gets too long, don't worry :p I'll wait a couple more months and see what my brain thinks of it then. I'm pretty happy with what I did today. Cracking open Начало again, today's lesson was В каком году (In what year?) and the ordinal numbers 40th-99th. It was very useful to finally learn how to say these things properly! And it turns out it was a lot easier than I thought. Turns out, all you have to do is decline the final word....for example, in 1975 would be в тысяча девятьсот семьдесят пятом году (in contrast, the way I've been saying it until now: в один девять семь пять, haha, I bet that will give you all a good laugh!). All you really need to change the end to -ом (prepositional case). Check out the following: первом / first, втором / second, третьем / third, четвёртом / fourth, пятом / fifth, шестом / sixth, седьмом / seventh, восьмом / eighth, девятом / ninth . There, you've now got both ordinal numbers 1-9 and you know how to say in which year something happened. Pretty easy, huh? And, like in English, if you're referring to something that happened in the last century, you only need to mention the last 2 digits (like, “in '42...” instead of “in 1942”)- of course, if you're talking about the invention of gunpowder or something equally long ago, just say the whole thing. If you're referring to something that happened this century, use две тысячи whatever. On to the exciting news. Yes, I did meet the Ukrainians today! The bus training took several hours (what can I say? We have a lame bus system...it comes about once every hour) but the time passed quickly and it was a lot of fun. The trainer and I arrived before the interpreter did, so I explained that we were waiting for the женщина которая говорит по-русский и кто нам помогает because I forgot the word переводчица (interpreter, f.). For most of the trip one of their children kept asking “Where are we going? Where are we going?” in Russian. In the beginning I was mainly listening, but towards the end of the day things were more relaxed and I was able to try speaking more. I think we kind of got to a point where they can understand what I'm trying to say (when I say things in my weird learner way- it's a style people get used to over time). I left my phone number with them and asked them to call me. They told me to “Приходите как гость!” (Come visit us, lit. come as a guest) I also hit it off with the (super-cool) interpreter and we'll hopefully be in touch in the future, so it was a pretty successful day! Edited by jedimindtrick on 19 August 2010 at 8:49am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| jedimindtrick Diglot Groupie United States 8monthsinukrain Joined 5220 days ago 90 posts - 119 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 20 of 92 24 August 2010 at 4:55am | IP Logged |
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Another book review (a shorter one this time :p)
I just finished “Yes! You Can Learn a Foreign Language: A Guide for Anyone Who Is Learning a Foreign Languages or Is Afraid to Do So.” This book is a bit more recent than my last review; it was published in 1987 so it includes fancy new things like cassettes, computers, and “laser videodiscs”(big in Japan in the '90s and the predecessor to the CD/DVD). {How do I end up with all these old books? I don't know...ask the public library. Anyways....} This book is geared towards the adult (college and up) learner who is learning in the classroom. In fact, there's hardly any material at all on self-study. The advice within is mainly of the common-sense variety for adults who are learning a new language in the classroom for the first time (ie, study tips). There were only a couple things I found worth noting: *“Success in a new language is mostly a result of the proper set of circumstances that allow your built-in language learning ability to operate at its best,” circumstances including things like time and money. *The difference between learning and acquisition. The authors define learning as a more formal activity- memorizing dialogue, conjugating verbs, reading, talking, etc. Acquisition is what takes places internally and almost unconsciously as you figure things out in your new language. *Time-management: to estimate how many hours you should study outside of class, “use this rule of thumb: note how many hours you will spend in class and multiply those hours by the difficulty level of the subject. If language learning comes easy to you, the difficulty level is 2; if it isn't easy but it is not very difficult, the level for you is a 3. If you expect studying is going to be a struggle, the level is 4. Multiplying the numbers of hours spent in class by the difficulty level equals your study time for the week.” *“Research about memory has shown that there are 3 sequential phases of memorization: pre-short term memory (pre-STM), short-term memory (STM), and long-term memory (LTM). In pre-STM, information stays with you for less than a minute, and no conscious effort is made to retain the information. In STM, information lasts longer than in pre-STM, requires conscious effort to remember, and is lost from your memory if not reviewed. In LTM, however, the information may last a lifetime.” The authors go on to suggest that the optimal way to get new info (like vocabulary) into your LTM is by reviewing it systematically after you first ''learn' it- first 10 minutes later, then 1 hour later, then 24 hours later, then 48 hours later, and so on until it has entered your LTM. This sounds like Anki to me! *To help in memorizing the words, the authors suggest to memorize words via groups of ideas rather than in isolation. For example, if you're trying to remember the word for “hair”, it will be easier for you to remember it if you memorize it with other relevant words (like “long”, “short”, “comb”, “barber”, etc.) They even suggest making a concept tree by linking words or pictures (note to self- try this in English class). On a personal note, I hate memorizing words. Years ago I switched to memorizing only sentences...you get more bang for your buck this way! So, I know what you're thinking. Yeah, it's stuff you probably picked up years ago on your language-learning odyssey :p But hey, I'm writing this blog for readers who are just starting to learn languages too, even though it seems that most of you are super- pros in your studies. Anyways, I picked up one more language book from the library that I will read and review, so stay tuned! Edited by jedimindtrick on 24 August 2010 at 4:56am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| jedimindtrick Diglot Groupie United States 8monthsinukrain Joined 5220 days ago 90 posts - 119 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 21 of 92 24 August 2010 at 5:22am | IP Logged |
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Despite a lack of posts, I have been studying recently. I've moved on to Part 3 of
Chapter 1 in начало. It's called "Давайте купим вам новый комьпютер" (Let's buy you a new computer, yes, sometimes they have really cheesy chapter titles!) This time around, though, I'm really learning from this textbook. It's been very helpful in my studies. 2 other resources have entered the picture lately: one is the Berlitz Basic Russian workbook ($13 new) and the other is Kathryn Szczepanka's Russian: A Self- Teaching Guide ($20 new). First, the Berlitz workbook. This workbook is not for beginners. It's called basic, but if you don't know how to decline nouns or know which tenses to use when, you will be soooo lost. I can't say I'm crazy about this workbook. The good part is that it's interesting- everything is split up into short exercises that try to be fun. Oh, and there's an answer key in the back. However, the bad parts outweigh the good- first off, there's a lot of little mistakes, like they didn't have a proofreader check it out before it was published. Also, while the dialogues can be interesting, the exercises often (way too often) include a sentence on vodka, specifically on refusing the said vodka. Once is fine, but I don't need to see that same sentence over and over! The other drawback is that since it is a workbook, there's absolutely no explanations. You could use this workbook to review what you've learned but you won't be able to learn anything new from it. On the other hand, Szczepanka's book is a treasure trove of grammar explanations. Chapters include: The Noun, The Adjective, The Verb, Participles, a chapter on each of the cases, and so forth. This is a really informative book and a really great reference. One chapter I discovered recently is "Verbs of Motion" and it's really helped me with my earlier struggles to define ездить from ехать. Another bonus is that each chapter includes some practice activities and an answer key. I feel this book is geared more towards intermediate to advanced students- the explanations are done at an intermediate level but she throws in little obscure pieces of info to cater to the advanced readers too. My goal is to finish the Berlitz workbook soon. It gets a little complicated though, because to do that I have to study each of the cases again. I'm trying to downsize my study library- it's better to have that information in my head than on my bookshelf- in case we get a chance to move to Russia soon. On that note, still no news, no job offers yet. :( I have been doing a lot of penpal-ing back and forth to people about life in that city and most of the messages I receive are written entirely in Russian. It's been good practice. I can type in Russian a lot faster...no more hunting for the right key. That's all my study news for now! 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| jedimindtrick Diglot Groupie United States 8monthsinukrain Joined 5220 days ago 90 posts - 119 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 22 of 92 28 August 2010 at 7:30am | IP Logged |
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Магкий знак и твёрдый знак
Разговаривают так: - Сколько я пирожных съем? Мягкий знак ответил: «Семь». Here's my lame translation, just in case you didn't understand (again, lame translation, I apologize!): Soft sign and hard sign Here's how they talk: - How many pastries can I eat? Soft sign answered "seven". This стихотворение-шутка ("rhyming joke") came from Русский Язык- Учебник для 4 класса четырёхлетней начальной школы. It's meant to point out the difference in pronunciation between ь and ъ. I like it! I've been flirting with other materials lately, straying from Начало. But there's nothing like looking at a basic children's textbook like this one and understanding almost nothing to dampen your spirits :p Ah, maybe someday I will be able to read what a small Russian child can read. Until then, onward and upward! Edited by jedimindtrick on 28 August 2010 at 7:31am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| jedimindtrick Diglot Groupie United States 8monthsinukrain Joined 5220 days ago 90 posts - 119 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 23 of 92 30 August 2010 at 4:57am | IP Logged |
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This is just something I wanted to put down for future reference. It's from a report called "Refugees as English Language Learners: Issues and Concerns" published by the Center for Adult English Language Acquisition.
***Howard McClusky's "power-load-margin" formula can be applied to refugees today. "Power" is the total amount of energy a refugee has, "load" is the energy used for basic daily survival, and "margin" is what is left and can be applied to other activities such as learning. This formula may explain why many adult refugees and immigrants learn English at different paces and why they may need more time to learn English at a level to support their goals for self-sufficiency.*** I read this paragraph several months ago and it has stayed with me since then. This is makes sense to me both as a teacher and a student. Edited by jedimindtrick on 26 September 2010 at 6:33am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| jedimindtrick Diglot Groupie United States 8monthsinukrain Joined 5220 days ago 90 posts - 119 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 24 of 92 10 September 2010 at 7:10am | IP Logged |
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I haven't been a very good student lately... in August my motivation was high because I thought all my plans would work out quickly. It being September now, my spirits are a little bit dampened but на бога надейся, а сам не плошай (Pray to God but continue to row towards shore, this isn't an exact translation but I like this version.)
I only opened the textbook once this past week and it was a very painful encounter, like my brain was in a boxing match with the genitive plural and count vs. noncount nouns. Ouch. So to stay positive and motivated, here's what I did do recently: spent the weekend with native Russians, watched Кавказский пленник (with subtitles, of course), and listened to the BBC morning news in Russian twice. I hope to get in a habit of putting this on in the mornings. I also made a tea date for next week with 2 of my former supervisors, who speak Russian and are intimidating enough people that I really should be studying right now. Oh, and I've continued to receive and write emails in Russian with my penpals. My best penpal at the moment has requested that I send her English idioms, so with every email I've included an idiom or two from my "2001 Russian & English Idioms" book. It's actually kind of fun to see how our cultures express the same thing in different (and funny) ways, like "It's all Greek to me" would be "Для меня это китайская грамота" (lit: To me, that's a Chinese document.) That's comic to me- why do we pick on Greek and they pick on Chinese? :p Another good one was "What's eating you?" as "Какая муха тебя укусила?" (lit: Which/what kind of fly bit you?) But honestly, the most motivating thing is this journal, since it makes me accountable to myself. One other incident of note that happened recently took place at the local zoo. A woman came up to me, pointed a map, and- without words- made it clear she was trying to get from point A to point B. I pointed back at the path she needed to take and then, curious, managed to inquire as to which country she was from. The answer was Brazil and so I said in Spanish to her, "I know that Portuguese is spoken in Brazil, but I do speak Spanish and the languages are similar so maybe I can help you..." It turned out she spoke some Spanish so we walked around the zoo for a bit together. This was such a weird encounter for me because the past 6 months I've felt so ashamed of my Spanish that I refused to do anything with it: not read it, not study it, not speak it with my boss from Guatemala, not put it on my resume, not acknowledge it in any way on this forum- and it was even my college major and I spent a lot of time over the past decade in Spanish-speaking countries so I spoke it quite well before. I was amazed that I could just open my mouth and get right back into it, not having to stop to think or translate anything, but just to speak, that it was already there in my brain. I was literally hearing the words not in my head, but being said at the same time that the woman heard them. It was weird.... Maybe there is still hope! In the book Bilingual by Francois Grosjean (I'm reading this now), he writes about language forgetting, and how we usually feel so guilty over it that we do nothing to stop the process and instead avoid it entirely. This might not be so common among people on this forum but it's a story I've heard over and over from my friends who studied languages in uni. I don't want this to happen to me and I need to find A) a way to preserve and keep up my Spanish and B) improve my Russian by specifically learning the grammar and continuing to work on conversation. Let me think this over and I'll be back. One change I would like to make on my journal here is to make it more statistics-focused, like other logs I follow (ie, I studied for 1 hour today, learned 8 new words, etc.) Please stay tuned... Edited by jedimindtrick on 10 September 2010 at 7:11am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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