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Is a universal language undesirable? | ||
Tags: Lingua franca | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Hekje Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 4701 days ago 842 posts - 1330 votes  Speaks: English*, Dutch Studies: French, Indonesian | Message 25 of 75 04 May 2012 at 3:16am | IP Logged | ||
The Dutch have a long history of language learning that precedes the advent of English as the undisputed global lingua franca. As the Netherlands is a small nation, it's absolutely necessary for economic success. The reason that many Dutch people switch to English, I think, is that they're genuinely not used to people speaking useful Dutch and are eager to communicate as efficiently as possible as early as possible. My experience has been that they are extremely polite about honoring your preferences once they become aware that your level suffices to communicate.* I actually wonder how you can conclude that the Dutch are indifferent to their own language by the fact that they prefer to speak to foreigners in English. At times in my language learning process I actually concluded the exact opposite based on the same. It sometimes seemed to me that English was just a tool to conduct business, while Dutch was reserved for home, friends, and family - the secret garden that foreigners usually didn't enter, and the language closest to their hearts. After all, the language used between Dutch people when no tourists are around is almost always Dutch.** Since my study of the language is ongoing, my thoughts on this topic will probably continue to evolve - but there's my $0.02 for now. *I've actually had more experiences with people bending over backward to accommodate my level in Dutch (i.e., many) than experiences with people flat-out refusing to speak the language with me (zero as of now). The professors I chose to speak only Dutch with in the Netherlands rarely, if ever, switched on me - and at that time my Dutch was blisteringly bad. **I have heard of couples who met speaking English and continued speaking English even after getting into a relationship, but it was considered pretentious. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| COF Senior Member United States Joined 5829 days ago 262 posts - 354 votes Speaks: English* | Message 26 of 75 04 May 2012 at 4:27am | IP Logged | ||
Compared to the way the French, Spanish and Italians vigorously promote their language, the Dutch do indeed seem very indifferent to their language. For example, the majority of music that is produced in the Netherlands is in English. Songs written in Dutch are very much in the minority, and seem to be a niche market even in the Netherlands. In fact, you can listen to Dutch radio all day without hearing a song in Dutch, whereas in most other European countries it would be virtually impossible not to hear a song in the native language. I didn't suggest the Dutch hate their language, but to be honest I don't think they love it either. While I don't doubt many Dutch are prepared to speak Dutch to you when they've established you're making an effort to learn, I think many of them can't understand why a foreigner would want to bother learning Dutch, when they could put their effort into a major language like French, German or Spanish. At the end of the day, the Dutch are very pragmatic people who see language as little more than a tool. They're not ashamed of their Dutch language, but they're not especially proud or protective of it either. I don't think most Dutch people fear English taking over nor do they fear the creation of a sort of Anglo-Dutch creol language. Whereas for the French, English taking over French is the stuff of nightmares, but the Dutch just don't care. Edited by COF on 04 May 2012 at 4:29am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Nguyen Senior Member Vietnam Joined 5091 days ago 109 posts - 195 votes Speaks: Vietnamese | Message 27 of 75 04 May 2012 at 5:39am | IP Logged | ||
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I disagree with COF's comments. I lived in the Netherlands fo over a year on a work assignment. I made many friends there and many encouraged me to learn Dutch. Sadly I didn't take the opportunity to go very far with it; however, they certainly are not indifferent to their language. The Dutch have been a trading nation for centuries and their history of language learning is equally long. They are rightfully proud of their language ability just like most of the members here, and they are eager to show off their abilty. Their command of Languages as a nation is enviable.
Moreover; English is not learned exclusively as most Dutch that I have met also speak German and a host of other languages. I was often mistaken as an Indonesian being Asian and was surprised at the number of Indonesian speakers. The Dutch are also quite proud of their own language from what I gather, anyone wishing to immigrate to the Netherlands must learn Dutch. As far as technical and medical terms, they are in Dutch also. I must say that there is plenty of Dutch music out there also, as well as TV. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| COF Senior Member United States Joined 5829 days ago 262 posts - 354 votes Speaks: English* | Message 28 of 75 04 May 2012 at 2:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yu're mistaken. You don't need to learn Dutch to live in the Netherlands and if you had an Anglophone job, of which many exist, everything else can be negociated in English.
It is completely unlike France, Spain and Germany where everything is in the native language, and if you don't learn the language to proficiency you will have many problems in getting things done. Also, unlike many other countries in Europe, the Dutch don't care if you don't speak their language, so they're always happy to translate things into English, or help you write forms in Dutch if you can't do it yourself. This is a complete contrast to France, where the attitude seems to be "speak our language or ship out". Basically, your statement that you must speak Dutch to immigrate to the Netherlands is wrong. Many expats live in the Netherlands for a considerable period of time, never learn anything more than phrasebook Dutch and do just fine. Edited by COF on 04 May 2012 at 2:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 29 of 75 04 May 2012 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | ||
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It depends on where you're from whether it's required to take the tests. The tests being compulsory only exist if you want to become a permanent resident and obtain Dutch nationality I think.
I doubt French people or Spanish people are required to learn the lingo. They're Schengen members so they can do as they please here. Here's the thing - I know many people from here are to an extent conversant in English. In fact, I would describe most users as fluent in the sense that they can always communicate what they want in English. It's a tool, it's a tool we've learned and honed over the years. It's a business tool, it's always compulsory, and anyone without a cursory proficiency in it (and by proficiency a phrasebook level of English is really an absolute minimum - most Dutch people with that level of English would probably not be satisfied with themselves), and it's viewed as pretty much a requirement. It's an attitude of "everyone speaks English, you have to know how to use the language at some level or in some form, depending on your path of life" and even compared to all the other languages people are taught in high schools across the country (German and French 99% of the time) there is almost nobody I know that complains about having to learn English. We've accepted that there are people who don't speak Dutch and thus if you're new or we're over at your place we will speak the global lingua franca. That's life. In that sense, someone who speaks "proper English" is looked up to and this is seen as very desirable (as the person most annoyed by typical Dunglish is most likely another Dutchman face-palming at his country(wo)man's ignorance). But it's a tool, it's not a heart's desire. Practically everyone feels way more comfortable in their native language and English is simply accorded the prestige as a global language and a necessity. With the exception of the bilinguals, the pretentious, or the ones obsessed with Anglo-Saxon culture, everyone prefers speaking Dutch amongst themselves. But there is absolutely nobody here that is going to claim they are fully bilingual, when functionally a whole lot of them probably are or are close to it. You're only considered bilingual if you speak with the same intonation and appearance of a true Englishman (or American, Canadian, Australian, etc. There is no preference for English or US English on the whole. Being able to do either signifies - bilingual). A few weeks ago in class there was a question on product design and we were asked to produce a marketing and production scheme for cling film. This is a master's class (and the requirement is that they're open to international students, thus it's in English). Even though EVERYONE in that classroom MUST have a functional command of English (otherwise you don't understand the course) and you would be able to fully function conversationally with ANY of them, no Dutch person in that class room raised their hand upon the question of "is this the correct translation for "cling film". They don't consider themselves bilingual at all. The Dutch student's worst nightmare for a masters' level professor is an ancient one who uses Dunglish, by the way. It's considered pretty irritating. But if you want to understand a Dutch person and the Dutch psyche, you cannot adequately translate it through English. Learn Dutch instead. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Hekje Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 4701 days ago 842 posts - 1330 votes Speaks: English*, Dutch Studies: French, Indonesian | Message 30 of 75 04 May 2012 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | ||
This is really key, I think. France, Spain, Italy etc. are all much larger countries both in terms of population and physical area. They can reasonably expect people to learn the language. The Dutch can't. In that light, it really doesn't make sense for someone to study Dutch. Furthermore, music is not the only indicator of a language's health. And languages import loads of loanwords all the time without becoming a creole as such - unless you think that English is a creole of French? I would also keep in mind that different cultures express feelings differently. Dutch people tend to be somewhat less ebullient when expressing their feelings in general (relative to Americans). It's not encouraged to use superlatives wastefully, and being able to poke fun at oneself and one's own culture is considered admirable. So not gushing over how great their language is is just typical of Dutch people not gushing as much (as Americans). You're definitely right in that most Dutch people aren't "proud" of their language in the way that the peoples of some other nations are, but, at the end of the day, they do choose to live the majority of their lives through Dutch. That's probably all I can add to the topic at the moment. Tarvos's comments are very interesting and much more insightful than mine. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 31 of 75 04 May 2012 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm guessing the lack of pride about it just stems from an egalitarian culture. Modesty is a virtue. The Dutch are simply not a patriotic nation, unless it concerns their contribution to football.
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| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5379 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 32 of 75 04 May 2012 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | ||
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To me, this issue is pretty simple. If you start wanting a universal language, then you will also want a universal culture -- because if you accept the idea of various cultures co-existing, then you have to expect that different languages will eventually arise from this. It's inevitable.
I'm not against the idea of a universal second language, which is an entirely different matter, but the idea that we could all share a first language is so far-fetched that I don't much see a point in discussing it at all. Edited by Arekkusu on 04 May 2012 at 8:24pm 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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