Is a universal language undesirable? (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Is a universal language undesirable?
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vilas
Pentaglot
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Message 41 of 75

24 March 2013 at 5:37pm | IP Logged

Is a universal language undesirable?
Do you mean a language understandable in the Universe ?
I think we have already a lot of troubles to understand each other on the Planet Earth that we don't have to worry about the rest of the Universe.
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SobreLaLey
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United States
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Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish, French

Message 42 of 75

24 March 2013 at 6:46pm | IP Logged

jingwumaster wrote:

It is true that arrogance is a form of pride but they are certainly not the same, that is, arrogance isn't pride that you disagree with, it is pride with a sense of superiority over others. I feel that Americans tend to look down on other languages, as if, theirs is better. This isn't pride at all, but looking down at others as inferior.

Obviously that isn't true for all Americans, nor is anything true for all members of a group about anything, but it may be true about a significant amount of Americans. Of course, that is just speculation based on my own experiences, which isn't necessarily strong evidence, but it is a type of evidence nonetheless. It is simply my impression.

I'd like to repeat that I am not illogical enough to assume that something is true for everyone because that is almost never the case. I am talking about what's common not absolute.

Second, I never said the affects were negative, though I implied it. The reason being that a universal language has both positive and negatives (like most things in life). Also, whether or not the influence of English in the world qualifies as a success depends entirely on who you ask, that is, it is a matter of perspective. If you ask your typical native speaker of English, then yes they would probably call it a success, yet if you ask a person from a culture whose language has been displaced either partly or wholly by English, you may get more interesting and often different answers.

Look at the influence the Roman Empire once had on the world, at the time, I'm sure there were people that thought it was a good thing, but there must have obviously been many more who hated it and resented the spread of the Roman Empire. Before you dismiss that as a false analogy, actually think about it first.

Third, you said Americans can afford to be monolingual, theres no question about that. On the beauty of the English language I feel very different than you about that. I don't see the confusing mix of aspects from other languages and the inconsistencies of English as a beautiful thing but instead see it as an ugly thing. If English spelling was at least more consistent than it wouldn't be as hard for foreigners to learn.

Four, you seem to imply that many Americans are too self-critical, yet my experience is just the opposite, that they seem rather mindless and do not question things nearly enough. Again, I'm saying this about a significant amount of Americans, but it obviously isn't true about everyone, which should go without saying.

Concerning my pride or lack-there-of in English and or America, I am not patriotic and I think patriotism is nonsense. Where you happen to be born is a matter of chance outside the control of yourself, and theres nothing special at all about it. Further more, the ideals that this country is suppose to be founded on have never been and never will be what this country approaches. I say approaches because ideals are unreachable to begin with, they are simply standards that drive you further (hopefully) than you would have otherwise gone.

Finally I'll say this, that my criticisms come more from my inability to fit-into this country and culture than anything else, and they are more about America than they are about English. I have felt like an alien in this country my whole life, I think I wasn't meant for American culture, and I admit that isn't entirely the fault of America, but more my own. Intellectually, I suffer greatly, thus is my life, and theres nothing wrong with it. Suffering is a natural and meaningful part of life. Sorry for getting a bit off topic.

Anyway, you should realize, I say none of this with anger. It is just how I feel. I realize that many people think differently than me (fundamentally), though I'm sure I sound pretentious, that is simply how I have felt my whole life, like an alien, or a ghost among zombies.

Also, I'd like to state that I am not nearly as negative or pessimistic as I sound, and I always wish the best for decent people, even if they are radically different from me.

Hasta la proxima

Its been a long time since I visited this site, but I will try to respond to some of your admittedly valid points. To be clear, I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss these things intelligently, which I think you are obviously doing.

I agree there are some Americans who are arrogant, but I think we just have a fundamental disagreement regarding whether arrogance and pride are really that different. Maybe it is simply a matter of degree, arrogance being pride at an extreme level, but I think it is more likely simply a matter of perspective: you might think your proud, I might think you are arrogant. We might both be "right" based on the information we have. I think we shouldn't read too much into peoples intentions because most of the time we have no idea. For example, the French are quite proud of being French, to the point I might call them arrogant. I doubt that they would agree.

Whether the effects are negative or positive is also clearly a matter of perspective, your right. However, my point wasn't that we are better off with English as a lingua franca, but merely that it wouldn't be any better with a different language in that position. It is what it is, I guess.

As far as SOME Americans looking down on other cultures/etc., that is certainly true. But is this arrogance or simply ignorance? Until I learned to speak Spanish, I had some pretty ignorant views on Latin America, for example. It wasn't that I truly thought I was better than anyone, I truly didn't know any better. Can you blame some rural kid in Kansas for not having a balanced perspective on the outside world when he has had no interaction with it? Unlike Europe, you can very easily live in the U.S. and never leave, only interact with U.S. media, only speak English, and so on. It's hard for me to call someone "arrogant" when they likely didn't have the opportunity to tour the world at a young age, something I was very lucky to be exposed to.

As far as patriotism, yeah I fully agree it is illogical, but useful for the powers that be. I like my country, kind of? I don't really grade countries like that. I like the U.S. entrepreneurialism, independence, and willingness to give the proverbial middle finger to the world if necessary (NOT saying that we only do that when necessary, "freedom fries" and the related events were hardly necessary). However, I despise our constant need to be P.C., and our inability to have a functional government. I don't think this is a political discussion, so the specifics aren't really my point. I simply mean to say every country has things I like, and things I don't. As far as "approaching the ideals" at the "core" of America, yeah I'd say what you said is obviously correct, but it is equally true for everywhere. North Korea has the "Democratic Republic" in their name, to name one example. To paraphrase your sentiments (I think), ideals are bullsh*t.

As far as fitting into American culture, I get where you are coming from but depending on how much time you have spent outside the States you may or may not have the information to even really say that. I relate to it, in that I certainly don't feel like I fit into U.S. society either, but I think I'd feel that to some degree everywhere. If you lived in Honduras for 14 years and felt more at home there I might take the sentiment seriously, but I have met many people who simply say things like that because they went to seem non-conformist or "cultured".

Comparison between U.S. and Rome? Spot on, and I have little to add except to say that the comparison doesn't say good things about the U.S.'s future.

As far as English specifically, whether its easy to learn is (to me, and often but not always) inversely related to a language's beauty. Chinese is incredibly difficult for English speakers, doesn't this add to its aesthetic value? To me it does. Ditto with French and their orthography. To say this is a negative for English doesn't make sense to me when it is a direct result of the unique history and role of English in the world. I see the ridiculous English spelling as battle scars worn proudly. This may simply be that me and you value different things, which is perfectly fine, and actually a good thing :)

Are all Americans too self-critical? Clearly no. Are a lot of "educated" and often "progressive" Americans a fan of criticizing their own culture and acting like we are somehow behind the rest of the industrialized world? Absolutely. I don't want to get into whether the sentiment is wrong/right and why/why not, I am simply saying those sentiments exist amongst MANY people. As far as Americans simply following the crowd and not critically thinking the predominant views through, well, duh, Americans are still humans are we not? EVERYBODY does this, at least that is my opinion.

If you don't relate to mainstream U.S. culture, go to Chinatown or any of the other immigrant communities and have a blast, if you feel so inclined. That is the main strength (and weakness) of the U.S.: its diversity.

Great talk, and sorry for my months long delay in responding. No anger or negativity felt from you and none sent from me :).

Hasta luego.

Edited by SobreLaLey on 24 March 2013 at 6:57pm
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wber
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United States
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Speaks: English*
Studies: Vietnamese, French

Message 43 of 75

25 March 2013 at 12:32am | IP Logged

jingwumaster wrote:

First, about the pride vs arrogance thing. It is true that arrogance is a form of pride but they are certainly not the same, that is, arrogance isn't pride that you disagree with, it is pride with a sense of superiority over others. I feel that Americans tend to look down on other languages, as if, theirs is better. This isn't pride at all, but looking down at others as inferior.

Obviously that isn't true for all Americans, nor is anything true for all members of a group about anything, but it may be true about a significant amount of Americans. Of course, that is just speculation based on my own experiences, which isn't necessarily strong evidence, but it is a type of evidence nonetheless. It is simply my impression.

I feel obliged to reply to this post. First of all, maybe you've been around bad company and that's why you have bad impressions. Significant amount of Americans what? What do you count as American tell me? Do you just see the whitest guy around and assume that he's American? False assumption right there.
I haven't heard any American say that their language is superior. You might confusing superiority with anger. Yes, a lot of Americans are angry that even though this is an English speaking country, they can't find work if they don't know another language. Or that some immigrants refuse to abide by standards.

jingwumaster wrote:

Third, you said Americans can afford to be monolingual, theres no question about that. On the beauty of the English language I feel very different than you about that. I don't see the confusing mix of aspects from other languages and the inconsistencies of English as a beautiful thing but instead see it as an ugly thing. If English spelling was at least more consistent than it wouldn't be as hard for foreigners to learn.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. If you feel that English is ugly because of its inconsistencies than there is no such thing as a beautiful language. I could equally say that French is horrible since they have to many silent letters and irregular liaisons. Why does Spanish have 17 verb tenses with 900+endings when just learning to trill the R is already a damn nightmare. Why does Chinese use pictures instead of an alphabet? Why does Japanese place the verb at the end? Why do Slavic languages have so many cases?

jingwumaster wrote:

Four, you seem to imply that many Americans are too self-critical, yet my experience is just the opposite, that they seem rather mindless and do not question things nearly enough. Again, I'm saying this about a significant amount of Americans, but it obviously isn't true about everyone, which should go without saying.

It depends on the type of people you are talking to and the topic too. I mean, if you talk to a 5 year old about physics, he could probably care less. Barely any European person will care about the NFL and Americans don't give a damn about soccer. You don't talk to your professors about who you scored with or go into a bar and give a lecture. I could make assumptions too. So far, literally all of the Hispanic people I've encountered here are manual laborers and I drive around a lot. I could say, that they're just too stupid or don't know enough English or just too damn lazy. However, I really don't know about their background so that would be mean. Also, this is from experience too. How do you know that one of those people might have had their degrees revoked in their homeland and in the US and now they have to start all over again from the bottom and with a new language to boot?

jingwumaster wrote:

Concerning my pride or lack-there-of in English and or America, I am not patriotic and I think patriotism is nonsense. Where you happen to be born is a matter of chance outside the control of yourself, and theres nothing special at all about it. Further more, the ideals that this country is suppose to be founded on have never been and never will be what this country approaches. I say approaches because ideals are unreachable to begin with, they are simply standards that drive you further (hopefully) than you would have otherwise gone.

Finally I'll say this, that my criticisms come more from my inability to fit-into this country and culture than anything else, and they are more about America than they are about English. I have felt like an alien in this country my whole life, I think I wasn't meant for American culture, and I admit that isn't entirely the fault of America, but more my own. Intellectually, I suffer greatly, thus is my life, and theres nothing wrong with it. Suffering is a natural and meaningful part of life. Sorry for getting a bit off topic.

If ideals drive you further than what you have gone, why is it so negative? You may never reach it, but trying is better than groaning and saying it's impossible. If that's all too life, we might as well all commit suicide. Ideals are a spark that help keeps you going on. I mean without those ideals, if you're a woman, then you'd be considered a man's property and nothing less. Racism would be more prominent. It still happens duh, but to a lesser degree than before and we'd have none of the amenities that we take for granted nowadays.

Also, don't confuse patriotism with hubris. Why not be proud of where you were born? Even if it's by chance, why not think "damn, I'm lucky". Patriotism does not just entail singing born in the USA and flag-waving stuff. It means I'm proud to be a citizen of this country and I'll try my best to make it better. There is a lot of crappy things about America I agree. However there's a lot of good things about it too. Let's not forget about that.

I also feel like an alien in this country too. The extreme socialness of people at times makes me feel awkard. I'm not anti-social, I'm just a very private person. My body language just gets interpreted in the wrong way. Also, I definitely know that I probably won't be able to compete in this dog-eat-dog 70hrs a week and no vacation workforce. However, since I wasn't born here so just having a passport that says United States of America has given me a wide range of opportunities that I might have not otherwise gotten.

jingwumaster wrote:

Anyway, you should realize, I say none of this with anger. It is just how I feel. I realize that many people think differently than me (fundamentally), though I'm sure I sound pretentious, that is simply how I have felt my whole life, like an alien, or a ghost among zombies.

Also, I'd like to state that I am not nearly as negative or pessimistic as I sound, and I always wish the best for decent people, even if they are radically different from me.

Hasta la proxima

Nah. You don't sound pretentious. You sound like the rich-guy with the huge mansion in the slums complaining about how "this sucks, that sucks etc." If you're a ghost among zombies, well then they can't get to you can't they? I can relate to you about feeling different. I've had that feeling ever since I was a kid that although there's nothing wrong with me, there's always this nagging feeling inside my head that says I was somehow different from the others. Maybe that's where I get all those crazy ideas.
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Hyrax
Diglot
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Kenya
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Speaks: Swahili, English
Studies: German, French

Message 44 of 75

30 March 2013 at 3:44pm | IP Logged

A universal language is not undesirable, but it must come with understanding and acceptance of the diversity of beliefs, cultures, manners and all other things we can enjoy when we encounter differences when travelling or meeting strangers.

No land or culture can feel superior even if it is where the universal language is the mother tongue.

The lingua franca should not be attached to an imperialistic ideology.

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MarcoLeal
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Message 45 of 75

31 March 2013 at 2:53pm | IP Logged

This is a very interesting topic and too many points have been put forward. I wish I could reply to all but that's probably not very practical so I'm just going to focus on the American influence debate.

I don't want to come out too aggressive but seriously, rejecting the idea of English as a universal language because you think you would be giving in to some kind of American imperialism seems childish to me. And this is not coming from an American, or even a native English speaker, in case you're wondering.

First of all we've reached the point where the expansion of English is pretty much self sustainable. Of course the role of English speaking countries is still significant but not as vital as it was, say, 100 years ago. The truth is that when you pick two random strangers who don't have the same native language and make them communicate with each other the language they're most likely to use is English. I don't have any sources to prove this but I think we can all agree on this based on our individual experiences. The vast majority of the people I've spoken English with are NOT native speakers. I study physics and most of the papers I read were not written by native speakers.

Secondly, even if the US really still were the main driving force behind the expansion of English, it's not really because of imperialism. Sure, they've sometimes behaved in a way that could be considered imperialistic but are those actions responsible for the success of English? I don't see how fighting in Vietnam, Nicaragua or Somalia or invading Iraq and Afghanistan contributed. The real cause is the fact that they create value. Value in entertainment, in information, in research. They didn't invade your country to force you to watch Hollywood movies. They don't send airplanes flying over your town to distribute flyers with the latest in American research and I could bet nobody puts a gun to your head to force you to tune in on CNN. The truth is we recognize value in it.

Finally even if it were true that American imperialism were the driving force behind the expansion of English, so what? Are we still in middle school or something? Don't the advantages outweigh the grudge? We all know that people can be idiots sometimes. If someone comes to me and says something like "America is the best country! You speak English because we rule the world!" I just shrug him off and go on living my life, reaping the fruits of the fact that I can speak a language that has opened so many doors for me. Gee! I wish all the problems in the world were this easy to solve!
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SobreLaLey
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Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish, French

Message 46 of 75

31 March 2013 at 8:05pm | IP Logged

@MarcoLeal - Reading your response made me smile. I think you have the most reasonable view on the issue I've seen thus far (perhaps including my own:)).

@Hyrax - I think "imperialism" is like racism (at least the way racism functions in the U.S., I can't comment on Europe, Africa, etc). They both exist, and they both have caused tons of injustice. However, if people go around blaming everything on racism/imperialism, they might be right sometimes but they are going to be wrong a heck of a lot too. Honestly, it just makes people shake their head and think "whatever" even when real imperialism/racism DOES need to be called out and criticized, because people use it as a criticism for seemingly everything they dont like. e.g.:

"I didn't get the job because I'm black"
"I didn't get into University X because I'm white"
"Everyone speaks English because of imperialism"
"France is an asshat because they are imperialistic towards Breton-speakers"
"China's government is imperialistic because they are [arguably] trying to get rid of non-Mandarin Chinese tongues"
"The U.S. is imperialistic because in the early 20th century they tried to impose English on Puerto Rico"

Are some/all of these comments arguably true? Yeah, perhaps (and undeniably so for the last one).

Will complaining about it (in this manner, that is) help anything? Almost certainly not.

Will people be less likely to listen to future accusations of imperialism/racism because it is claimed for even small things that may have nothing to do with it? Yeah, I can tell you in the U.S. there are many people who will stop listening to you when you allege racism, because people will scream "racism!" for every possible slight towards them. I react the same way when I hear accusations of imperialism. Before you make that accusation learn some history and understand exactly what true imperialism is... it gets much worse than setting up a McDonalds in every country of the world (save North Korea and Cuba, and I'm sure a few others).SeeManchuria, Hitler, Napoleon, the Iron Curtain, and the genocide of Native Americans (i.e. I have Cherokee ancestors from the U.S. state of Oklahoma. They were moved there from the U.S. Southeast, forcibly. Google "trail of tears").

If you speak Spanish (Castellano) and aren't from Castile, thank imperialism. If you speak French and aren't from Paris, ditto. If you speak Swahili you can thank imperialism to a certain degree. Mandarin, Russian, German, Portuguese... catch my drift? We are pretty much all dirty in this respect, English was just a heck of a lot more successful, at least for right now. I mean, a heck of a lot of words from my language came from Latin, as well as every language I study (French, Spanish, etc). I dont speak them because of imperialism, at least not consciously, I speak them because I need to be understood.

Anyone who thinks they are superior because they speak the lingua franca is ignorant, especially considering there are far more second language speakers of English than natives. Obviously, it ain't that hard (in relative terms, if you are learning English I am not trying to downplay the struggle or achievment).
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Hyrax
Diglot
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Kenya
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Speaks: Swahili, English
Studies: German, French

Message 47 of 75

31 March 2013 at 8:58pm | IP Logged

SobreLaLey wrote:

@Hyrax - I think "imperialism" is like racism (at least the way racism functions in the U.S., I can't comment on Europe, Africa, etc). They both exist, and they both have caused tons of injustice. However, if people go around blaming everything on racism/imperialism, they might be right sometimes but they are going to be wrong a heck of a lot too. Honestly, it just makes people shake their head and think "whatever" even when real imperialism/racism DOES need to be called out and criticized, because people use it as a criticism for seemingly everything they dont like. e.g.:

"I didn't get the job because I'm black"
"I didn't get into University X because I'm white"
"Everyone speaks English because of imperialism"
"France is an asshat because they are imperialistic towards Breton-speakers"
"China's government is imperialistic because they are [arguably] trying to get rid of non-Mandarin Chinese tongues"
"The U.S. is imperialistic because in the early 20th century they tried to impose English on Puerto Rico"

Are some/all of these comments arguably true? Yeah, perhaps (and undeniably so for the last one).

Will complaining about it (in this manner, that is) help anything? Almost certainly not.

Please could you inform me where I have complained about "it" or "in this manner"?

Please could you also inform me where I have blamed anything on imperialism or racism?

Is it not you who has misread my words? Take another look at my post and please do read it properly this time.

Sobrelaley wrote:

Will people be less likely to listen to future accusations of imperialism/racism because it is claimed for even small things that may have nothing to do with it? Yeah, I can tell you in the U.S. there are many people who will stop listening to you when you allege racism, because people will scream "racism!" for every possible slight towards them. I react the same way when I hear accusations of imperialism. Before you make that accusation learn some history and understand exactly what true imperialism is... it gets much worse than setting up a McDonalds in every country of the world (save North Korea and Cuba, and I'm sure a few others).SeeManchuria, Hitler, Napoleon, the Iron Curtain, and the genocide of Native Americans (i.e. I have Cherokee ancestors from the U.S. state of Oklahoma. They were moved there from the U.S. Southeast, forcibly. Google "trail of tears").

I take offence at being accused that I need to learn some history. I have studied history and have great interest in it.

Again, I humbly ask you to inform me where I have accused what you appear to think I have. I made no accusation.

Sobrelaley wrote:

If you speak Spanish (Castellano) and aren't from Castile, thank imperialism. If you speak French and aren't from Paris, ditto. If you speak Swahili you can thank imperialism to a certain degree. Mandarin, Russian, German, Portuguese... catch my drift? We are pretty much all dirty in this respect, English was just a heck of a lot more successful, at least for right now. I mean, a heck of a lot of words from my language came from Latin, as well as every language I study (French, Spanish, etc). I dont speak them because of imperialism, at least not consciously, I speak them because I need to be understood.

Please be so kind as to show me where I have mentioned English or Americans in this thread? I think you will find that I didn't.

I would have liked to have reported your inhospitable reply to my post but I did not find any such icon.

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SobreLaLey
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Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish, French

Message 48 of 75

31 March 2013 at 9:00pm | IP Logged

I apologize, I wasn't directing that message towards you in a sense of accusing you of anything. i was merely using your comment as an impetus to expressing further thoughts of mine. Seriously, I can see how that may have been misinterpreted and I didn't intend it that way.

In the U.S. we sometimes use the word "You ..." not to refer to you specifically but more of a general saying like "One ..." That was definitely my mistake and I wasn't clear and again I apologize for the confusion.

Edit: Didn't realize I accidentally deleted the second paragraph.

Edited by SobreLaLey on 31 March 2013 at 9:03pm

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