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How effective is an L1 -> L2 translation? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Spiky Newbie United States Joined 5467 days ago 19 posts - 19 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 1 of 7 02 April 2012 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm currently studying Tagalog and the language is not as syntactically-demanding as English is. In other words, word order really doesn't matter and there are a lot of words that do not translate directly to English, but add a whole lot more meaning sentence. Because of this, in order to make my translation, I have to completely re-write the sentence in English so it makes sense.
So, my question is, is an L1 -> L2 translation even effective? If I were to see the new sentence I created from a complicated sentence, I feel that it would be quite impossible to be able to reproduce it naturally (and not just from memory alone) and accurately just because of the difference of the languages. I'm assuming this is a common problem in everyone's language-learning methods. I'm currently using Luca's method. What do you guys think? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6731 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 7 03 April 2012 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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I had a quick look at Tagalog a couple of years ago, and right now I'm studying Bahasa Indonesia which is from the same language group - and the learning situation is probably the same as with Tagalog. So far I feel that the differences in grammar between English and Indonesian aren't a big issue - getting enough vocabulary is the real problem. When I read Indonesian texts the word order seems to be the one I expected, and expressing verbal tenses through added adverb-like words is also a trick used in English and other 'Westernese' languags - it is just more important in Indonesian because there aren't any tense endings. There are pre- and postfixes which give words a special 'colouring' which may or may not point towards certain wordclasses. For instance di- indicates a passive form, while ber- pushes a word towards being verblike. My chief reference here is Russian with its affixes which mark perfective and imperfective verbs. In short, Indonesian is different, but not shockingly different. Actually I feel more like walking on Mars when I study Irish.
Direct word-for-word translations from Indonesian (or Tagalog) will however not result in something like standard English, and sometimes you will not even be able to guess the meaning of the original from such a translation. But my stance here is that hyperliteral translations actually are those that show how the speakers of the target language actually think when they want to express a certain meaning. And if I want to learn to think in the same terms such a translation can be a useful tool in both directions: I can remember a weird construction through its hyperliteral translation, and if I see such a translation in a book I know how to analyse the foreign construction. In both situations it is of course a pedagogical tool which with time is destined to become superfluous, but at least for me it has proven to be working. In contrast free translations show you how a certain meaning is expressed in different languages, but any formal coincidence is purely accidental. They have a role to play when a translator makes a translation for somebody who can't be bothered to learn the original language, and they can be as a control that you are able to express a certain meaning in another language - but it doesn't tell you how to do it. It is still effective insofar you can discover your limitations in the foreign language - if you can't say something to the same effect as "What do you guys think?" in Tagalog then you know that sooner or later you have to find out to do it. So you go hunting. Maybe you can find a useful expression in a dictionary or in a genuine text or elicit a solution to this problem from your teacher, or you can make a guess and use Google to see whether you are on the right track, but the point is: free translations in either direction only pinpoint your problems, whereas hyperliteral translations also gives you hints about how to solve them. But you still have a problem. When you write "in order to make my translation, I have to completely re-write the sentence in English so it makes sense" I guess that you speak about making a hyperliteral translation before you write your L2 version. But this is only possible if you already know the solutions to your translation problems. Hyperliteral translations are not meant to be used when you translate from L1 to L2. Either they are found in language guides or grammars written by others, or YOU construct them while working with texts in L2. They would be a superfluous step when you translate from L1 into L2. The reason is that when you do L1 -> L2 translations you have to rely on words and patterns you already know or can look up, and there is no advantage in so to say anticipate in your L1 what you are aiming at in your L2. Either you know the ingredients of the final solution (words, constructions) or you don't. You may of course have to look up a word to fill in a vacant slot in a certain construction in L2, but if you don't know what to do in your L2 it won't help you to rewrite and rewrite the phrases in your L1. Edited by Iversen on 03 April 2012 at 12:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5409 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 3 of 7 03 April 2012 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | ||
You won't find two languages that always use the say words or word order. Translation is always going to move you away from the original language... and that's kind of the point. When people say they use L1 to L2 translation as a technique or as an exercise, the point is to take a given message or meaning in the L1 and work at rendering that in the L2 while both keeping the message as close to the original as possible and maintaining as perfect grammar and naturalness as possible. The only purpose of English here is to give you a challenge, something to convey in the L2. The way it's structured or organized in English is of little interest. Certainly, there is no point in rewriting it... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Spiky Newbie United States Joined 5467 days ago 19 posts - 19 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 4 of 7 03 April 2012 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | ||
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So can I just rely on a passive way of learning, and continue to do L2 -> L1 translations? Or do you suggest I do L2 -> L1 -> L2, so I can study both actively and passively? It seems as if you guys believe that an L1 -> L2 translation in this method would be a redundant thing.
Obviously the goal here is to be able to write and speak in the language at a competent level, and since I'm new to all of this, I could use some advice. @Iverson: To clarify, I don't actually write a hyperliteral translation--I just look at the sentence and try to obtain an English sentence that makes sense. Sometimes, when I need to make a translation that actually make sense, I need to utilize other words (that aren't even present in the sentence) so that will happen. So, to clarify further, how can I possibly translate from L1 -> L2 accurately (reproduce the original L2 sentence that I translate it from) if I'm using English words that I had to add/replace in order to make the sentence make sense? It seems that I'm going to have to accept that when going from L2 -> L1 -> L2, my newly-created L2 sentence is not going to be anywhere near the original but still make sense. Edited by Spiky on 03 April 2012 at 9:50pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5409 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 5 of 7 04 April 2012 at 12:27am | IP Logged | ||
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I like to do L1 to L2, but orally and on the fly. However, it would a great exercise to
do it in writing if you can have your text corrected in Lang-8 for instance. To me, it's L2 to L1 that's a complete waste of time from the perspective of active production. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Spiky Newbie United States Joined 5467 days ago 19 posts - 19 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 6 of 7 04 April 2012 at 9:34pm | IP Logged | ||
Do you try to shoot for an exact reproduction of the original text? Or do you just shoot for something that makes sense, regardless if they aren't the same? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5409 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 7 of 7 04 April 2012 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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I shoot for the exact same meaning, including nuances, regardless of how it's worded. If I have this exact message I'm trying to render and I can't, then I can tell exactly where my weakness or lack of knowledge is and I try to patch it.
I suppose you can shoot for something similar if exactness isn't yet possible, but in that case, I'd favour opting for a simpler text. If you work with a partner, he or she should be able to adapt his output to match your level of skills. The good thing about this kind of exercise is that you have to express something complex which you, yourself, may never have said in that particular way (therefore pushing your limits), and you get immediate feedback as to whether or not your production was grammatically accurate. On some occasions, I was able to find bilingual texts. In that case, I'd try translating it, my partner would help fix issues or suggest an alternative or more natural sounding translation, then we'd look at the translated version -- not as an authoritative version, but as an example of another way things could have been said. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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