|
 |
Rude to speak a foreign language? | ||
Tags: Language Banditry | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5205 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 9 of 17 30 September 2013 at 3:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
The main situation in which speaking a language being "rude" comes to mind is when you're with a mixed group - for example if I'm with two Italians and a person who doesn't know Italian, then as much as I'd love to speak Italian, it would be unfair to exclude the other guy. So I won't switch unless either they do it first or if they're having difficulty explaining or understanding something in English. Of course, some English learners do take advantage of this and at a social gathering will deliberately join groups where at least one person doesn't know their language.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5530 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 10 of 17 30 September 2013 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yeah, the great thing about carring L2 books is that even if there's no one to talk to, you can still get caught up on the Super Challenge. :-) For students of French, you could also look for a copy of Le Canard enchainé, an excellent satirical newspaper sctroyenne recommended—this will definitely earn you the benefit of the linguistic doubt, and amuse you as well. As for T-shirts, you don't want something touristy that says "Bonjour!" or whatever. Look for something only a native would normally wear. A T-shirt from a popular L2 show would be a good start, or something which is personally appropriate and clever. Benny Lewis is actually a master of props. When he visited Egypt, his Arabic probably wasn't even a solid B1, but he spent some time watching Egyptian men in the street, and actually overhauled his entire wardrobe and changed his body language. Not only did this make people surprisingly willing to speak Arabic with him, it also discouraged the "touts" who normally pester tourists with various offers:
The idea here is that people respond to the cultural signals that you give off. The more you seem to be integrated into local life, the more people will assume you can get by in the local language. And in environments where there's no real default language, such as parts of Montreal, people seem to rely heavily on such details to avoid the usual "Bonjour/hi" dance. 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Astrophel Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 5730 days ago 157 posts - 345 votes Speaks: English*, Latin, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Cantonese, Polish, Sanskrit, Cherokee | Message 11 of 17 30 September 2013 at 8:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
Thanks for the advice everyone! :) I particularly like the one about wearing a t-shirt or reading a book in Spanish. I'm pretty sure cultural cues are the entire problem, because my Spanish actually is at that B2-C1 level already, which is why I'm seeking out strangers to converse with in Spanish - it's good enough that I won't get stuck when talking to someone and cause them to switch to English in frustration. But sometimes (not all the time, but more than a little) they give me this weird look, and a long, awkward pause that says "what are you doing?" before answering in Spanish. It's positively unnerving.
Relations between Latinos and Caucasians here are pretty tense, like in many parts of the US. It's not so much overt racism as "white hipsters" gentrifying what was a traditionally Latino neighbourhood, while complaining that all the good burrito places and "local flavor" they moved here for are disappearing because the rent is too expensive now. There are two main streets immediately parallel to each other - one is full of ironic Latino-styled hipster kitsch, and the other is full of produce markets and businesses that cater to the Spanish-speaking population. White people will go to the other street and buy stuff because it tends to be cheap, and that's pretty much the extent of cross-cultural relations. I'm sure my language is solid but they still sometimes take it like I'm speaking Spanish to try and mess with them or something. They're expecting English from me and it catches them off guard and makes them uncomfortable. Then I get really unnerved too as a result. I was wondering if that ever happened to anyone else.
THIS is extremely helpful. If I'm carrying around a Spanish novel, I'm obviously taking a genuine interest in Spanish language and culture, and if I give the right body language cues then I'm showing I've at least immersed myself enough to pick up and imitate that. Without overdoing it of course :P That should break the ice a bit. Reading your post emk, I think the situation is fairly comparable to the French/English relations in Quebec, except that Spanish is still (unfortunately) looked upon as lower class by many people in the US. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Fuenf_Katzen Diglot Senior Member United States notjustajd.wordpress Joined 4367 days ago 337 posts - 476 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Polish, Ukrainian, Afrikaans | Message 12 of 17 30 September 2013 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
Body language is great advice! I think Benny Lewis said in one of his posts that he had Latinos in Spanish-speaking communities and stores (in the U.S.) automatically address him in Spanish because of his body language. I wonder if that's easier said than done of course--I don't know that it's so easy to automatically switch without making it look like you're trying to pass for a Spanish speaker, but I think it will gradually come if you pay attention to it.
It's possible that catching native speakers off guard is really no more than that. If your Spanish is really at a B2-C1, that's not a level where someone who is out to cause trouble. If it's a store that generally caters to Spanish speakers, it's perfectly acceptable to speak in Spanish. I understand about the tension though; sometimes it almost feels like speaking in a particular language adds to the cultural divide. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tanya b Senior Member United States Joined 4776 days ago 159 posts - 518 votes Speaks: Russian | Message 13 of 17 30 September 2013 at 10:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
I don't know if I would call it rude, but I think in some ways it is kind of selfish on my part that I would value another person only because of his or her ability to speak the TL and not being interested in what language they want to speak. I have reduced the other person to simply a vehicle to have a free language tutorial while they're scanning my groceries.
By indulging myself in speaking the TL with the store clerk who is desperately trying to improve his/her English, I am depriving them of their opportunity to speak English and delaying their ability to reach fluency and sometimes I feel a little guilty about that. When I visit my relatives in Las Vegas I always request a Russian or Armenian-speaking taxi driver so I can have a long uninterrupted conversation with them. I realize that this is stupid because their driving abilities should be my main concern, but I can't resist the temptation. Usually I am taken for a foreigner because I don't have an American accent according to most people. One time I had an Armenian driver and I got a phone call, so naturally I had to speak in English. After the call my driver said I spoke English really well for a Russian. I just smiled and said thank you in Armenian. Blending in culturally with the TL speakers is a gentler approach, but what if you're studying Uzbek? Where are you going to find a T-shirt with Uzbek writing on it to ingratiate yourself with the natives? 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5530 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 14 of 17 30 September 2013 at 11:35pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
In my experience, I've found that such looks can carry a wide variety of messages. Here are some examples, as best as I could interpret them: - "My English and French are both native level. We can totally speak English." - "French is mother tongue, but I've haven't spoken it with anyone outside my family since turning 12, and it's actually not as good as my English unless I warm it up first. This is a little awkward." - "I'll speak French with anglophones from Montreal, but with an American? Too weird." - "Why can't you just code switch seamlessly like a normal person, instead of hunting for words in your L2?" - "Excuse me, I'm busy trying to practice my English. Fair's fair." Around Montreal, there seems to be a real etiquette about language choice, even in commercial situations. Given that so many people are at least B1 in their second language, every interaction with a stranger requires you to pick a language. So if you're awkward and combative about picking languages, you're going to spend much of your day being awkward. And if it's a matter of etiquette, that means that sometimes the other person gets to pick the language, and that's cool. My goal is to be courteous, which means I need to figure out the social customs as well as the language. Folks in Montreal have always been amazingly polite to me, and I hope to match their kindness.
The history in Quebec is fairly dramatic, to say the least. I'm going to provide links to French-language resources here, because Wikipedia's French and English articles don't always match. Links in English are marked "(en)". If you go back several decades, much of the power in Quebec was held by the anglophones, and the francophones were the victims of discrimination, some of it allegedly quite ugly. This was followed by terrorist actions, major protests and political change and martial law. Not to mention language laws that are sometimes easy to parody (en). So there's a lot of history and politics here. But the current generation seems to be quite pragmatic and mellow:
So if you're living in a bilingual area, it's possible that there are all kinds of buried fault lines. There's probably also various customs which exist to keep these fault lines safely buried. It seems like you have a pretty good handle on how all this works in your neighborhood. But it's worth remembering that not all weird looks mean either "Your Spanish sucks" or "Are you insulting my English?" Sometimes the best decision is to smile and speak English. And it never hurts to take an interest in people and to try to puzzle out the cultural stuff. Edited by emk on 30 September 2013 at 11:41pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5830 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 15 of 17 30 September 2013 at 11:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Did he describe what kind of body language he used to achieve this? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| bela_lugosi Hexaglot Senior Member Finland Joined 6452 days ago 272 posts - 376 votes Speaks: English, Finnish*, Italian, Spanish, German, Swedish Studies: Russian, Estonian, Sámi, Latin | Message 16 of 17 01 October 2013 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
You can order a custom made T-shirt on which they can print a witty phrase in Uzbek. ;) I've had many people ask me what the Russian text on my silly T-shirt means ("I work for KGB. How about you?") - a really nice way to break the ice in any social context. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
