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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6709 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3177 of 3959 05 February 2013 at 2:48pm | IP Logged |
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My asthma is already chronical, but it is under control so I just try to avoid climbing mountains and running marathons. And on level ground I can normally walk long tours without a service car following me around. As illustrated by this little story from a hot place:
SP: Durante mi recente viaje a Cuba he visitado la pequeña ciudad de Viñales el 1 y 2 de Enero. Llegué alrededor de mediodía en la calle principal de Viñales y vi/audí un montón de altoparlantes terifiantes y un podio. OK, restos de las celebraciones de Nuevo Año de la noche precedente, pensé, y estará todo bien aclarado y los altoparlantes estarán lejos en pocas horas. ¡¡¡¡¡ERRORRRRR!!!!! Parece que la revolución en Cuba tuvo lugar alrededor del año nuevo 1957-58, y el partido se asegura de que nadie lo pueda olvidar. Por ejemplo con musica. A muchos cubanos ruido es una palabra agradable o mismo su razón para vivir, pero he hablado también a viñaleros que habian enviado cartas de queja al partido y a los poderes administrativos du su ciudad, pero sin ningún resultado. El partido desea tormentar a la gente con musica en los dias festivos. Para escapar de Viñales en esta situación calamitosa he caminado por la cuenca fuera de la ciudad el resto del 1 de Enero - en primo lugar en la direccion oeste, después norte, y he alcanzado a unas cuevas que según my guía Footprint estan situadas a 6 km fuera de la ciudad, peró según la gente del lugar a 8 km de distancia. Y quando he visto que los horripilantes altoparlantes no solo siempren estaban aún allí al mi retorno, peró también habian grupos de musica ahora, he pasado algunas horas caminando (hasta medianoche) en las calles menos ruidosas. En total he caminado almenos veinte kilometros en un dia, y quando la terror continuó el dia siguiente he caminado otros quince o veinte kilometros - pero tambien he visitado en ritmo pausado un jardin hermoso a una cierta distáncia del enfoque de los problemos: el Jardin de Caridad - sin duda el lugar más agradable de toda la región. ¡Todo viajante que visita Viñales debe visitar este jardin! El 3 de enero los instrumentos de tortura fueron retirados, y Viñales se mostró finalmente de su aspecto soportable. Sin embargo me han dicho algunos habitantes que el ruido teroriza toda la ciudad cada bendito sábado por la noche durante todo el año, y por eso yo ruego a toda persona que no sea sordo o amante de ruido de permanecer muy lejos de Viñales en todos los sábados y festivos de todo el año. Edited by Iversen on 07 February 2013 at 10:39am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6709 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3178 of 3959 08 February 2013 at 1:00pm | IP Logged |
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I haven't written anything in this thread since Tuesday, but that doesn't mean that nothing happens - actually some evenings I'm so busy working in my armchair that I never get around to switch on my computer.
RU: Вчера я начал новый проект: Русскый список слов - основан на тот же макет, как мой греческый список слов из января. Это означает, что цель, чтобы пройти через 2-3000 слов, и каждый из них будет в списке только с датским перевод и русское слово. В противном случае это заняло бы слишком много времени и слишком много места. Русские слова заполняет уже более чем греческие. Я думаю, что русские любят как длинные слова и фразы - такие, как "benzinstation" (gas station) является "абтозаправочная станица", или "telefonbog" (telephone directory) - "адресно-спрабочная книга". А как правило заимствованные слова той же длины, что и исходное слово. И есть много, такие как "парикмахер" (который не делает парики), "бегемот" (большой монстр из Библии) и "ассигнация" ("une monnaie fiduciaire mise en place sous la Révolution française").Может быть, мой словарь не полностью современный... Yesterday I started a new project, a wordlist at the same level as the one I made for Greek in January: 2-3000 words, but to save time and space it will not be three columns, but just two: translation and Russian original. I use Berlitz Pocket dictionary, though with Gyldendal Red dictionary Russian-Danish to clear up small problems. I did first use the English translations from Berlitz, but I found that I remembered things better if I had thought aboout the translation, and writing a Danish word instead forced me to think. It could just be that Danish is my native language and English isn't, but I found out that it also was more efficient to translate the Danish words from Gyldendal into English so the relevant factor must be that I do something active with the translation - which I hadn't noticed before. Of course I may still prefer another language than the standard one to get more precision in isolated cases, but right now my wordlist will be in Danish and Russian even though its main source is in Russian and English.. Apart from that I have read the last couple of articles in the Italian "Focus", some articles from "Lifandi Vísindi" in Icelandic (including one about the '10.000 hours rule') and some chapters in my TY Irish. Edited by Iversen on 08 February 2013 at 2:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6709 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3179 of 3959 09 February 2013 at 11:51am | IP Logged |
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IC: "Æfðu þig í 10.000 tíma!" Þetta er titillinn á grein í Lifandi Vísindi, sem einnig er að finna á vefsíðu tímaritsins. "Það sem gera þarf er hins vegar að æfa sig í 10.000 stundir af mikilli einbeitingu." "Mikill einbeiting" felur í sér að öllum líkindum ekki að horfa á sjónvarpið á meðan að ein vinnur á tölvunni sinni, og getur þess vegna falla né heldur afþreyingar lestur, þar sem þú hefur áhuga mest á efni - það er, að aðgerð, ef þú lest skáldskap.
RU: Я, конечно, не слушал русский язык в 10.000 часов, и случайно я нашел сегодня одной из причин для этого: Булгаков! Или, скорее: Булгакова как его прочитал некоторый В. Смердов - он зачитал текст с шепот, рев, искаженные голоса маниерная олимпийская спокойно. Это продолжалось довольно в первой главе, где два джентльмена обсуждали с самим дьяволом, но уже во второй главе я собираюсь меня тошнить - звучало, как пьяный с белой горячкой. Я, однако, делал полный набор материалов для аудирования, чтения, с MP3-файл, переводом и оригинальным текстом. И анимает много времени, потому что читатель подскочил много текста, и я отметил это в русской версии. Затем я достиг главе 4, прежде чем я сдался. Сегодня я остановился после второй главы. После этого эксперимента, я слышал только немного русский язык через интернет и отдельные телевизионные программы на русском вопросов - таких, как отличная программа вчера на Газпром. Но они составляют определенно не для 10.000 часов. As I have mentioned earlier I have been reading some articles from the excellent Icelandic magazine "Lifandi Vísindi" ('living science'), including one about the 10.000 hours theory, which states that you have to spend at least 10.000 on any subject before you become really good at it. In the article language studies weren't mentioned, but in our realm concentrated work would probably not include TV watching while you do something else on your PC, and reading just for the content would probably also be outside the 10.000 hours. So 10.000 hours for listening or studying intensively, that's the goal. The article doesn't mention the possibility that you can choose a narrow topic like the 'touristical' words you need to survive in a foreign country, and then you may need less time. But 10.000 hours, that's a lot of time. I most certainly haven't listened to Russian for 10.000, and today I stumpled over one of the reason: Bulgakov! Or rather Bulgakov as rendered by a certain V.Smerdov, who presumable is (or was) a Russian actor. I once upon a time downloaded the Master and Margherita as a MP3 from a collection of public domain readings, plus a translation into English and the original text. And then I proceeded to make a LR-version of these ingredients. It took fairly long time because Smerdov skips large parts of the text and I marked these passsages in the Russian text. But the real problem was that Smerdov's theatrical histrionics brought me close to vomiting, and I had to stop after just four chapters - it was like listening to a drunken sod with delirium tremens howling and babbling and whispering to absolutely nobody in the corner of a dingy tavern. After that I tried to listen to some more sober Russian web TV, but didn't understand much, and even though I understand more now (because I have been working on Russian written sources) it is still not a pleasure. Yesterday I watched a program about the Russian energy giant Gazprom, with subtitles, and a lot more of this kind of material would have solved the problem long ago, but I suppose the nefarious effect of Bulgakov and Smerdov was too traumatic to be handled easily. Actors, go home! Edited by Iversen on 09 February 2013 at 12:04pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6709 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3180 of 3959 10 February 2013 at 11:51pm | IP Logged |
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GER: Ich habe heute ganz viel deutsches Fernsehen gesehen. Zuerst habe ich eine Dame gefolgt auf ihre Stundenlange Radfahrt durch Nordfriesland, d.h. Husum und, Föhr und Amrum. Fast alles war auf Hochdeutsch, aber hier und da hatte ich trotzdem das Gefühl, daß die Leute wieder Platt schnacken würde, sobald die TV-Leute wieder weg waren. Und während eines Gespräches mit einem Dachdecker auf Föhr wurde tatsächlich einige Sätze auf Platt unzensiert ausgesprochen, aber auf Hochdeutsch beantwortet. Gut, ich hätte es nicht anders erwartet, aber Schade, daß das ganze Programm nicht auf Niederdeutsch ausgestrahlt wurde. Übrigens ist wohl vom Friesischen kein Spur mehr zu finden im sogenannten Nordfriesland.
Danach war es Karneval-Zeit - drei Stunden Direkttransmission von Braunschweig. Ich bin froh, daß ich nicht im Innenstadt dort wohne und alle meine tägliche Rutinen suspendieren müsse wegen die Festlichkeiten - aber es wäre vielleicht interessant irgendwann so eine Karnevalsprozession im realen Welt zu sehen - als Gast und nur als Gast. Eigentlich ist es verblüffend, daß die Deutschen so fest an ihren Karnevalstraditionen hängen, daß eine verhältnismässig kleine Stadt wie Braunschweig eine sechs Kilometer lange Parade mit hunderte von Wagen jedes Jahr präsentieren kann. IR: Tá mé freisin ag staidéar airteagal i Vicipéid ar aibítir sean-Ghaelach Ogham. Úsáidtear é ar líne fada le cros-línte do consain agus poncanna do gutaí. An-suimiúil - agus le pianbhreitheanna níos giorra ná an t-alt ar Eabhrais. I have watched a lot of German TV today. First a program about a lady who went around Nordfriesland on a bike. This is roughly the part of Germany from the Danish border and Southwards along the North Sea coast - and in spite of the name there is hardly anybody there who speaks Frisian these days. But if you search native speakers of Low German this might be a relevant location - several times I had the feeling that the people she spoke to just spoke High German for the camera, and that they would chatter on in Platt as soon as the foreign invaders had left the territory. And when she was sitting on a half finished roof on the island Föhr with a thatcher and his apprentices a few sentences in the secret language actually got through the High German firewall and escaped out in the world. Afterwards I watched 3 hours straight from NDR with a direct transmission from the carnival procession of the town Braunschweig. It is amazing that such a fairly small town can present a 6 km long parade with hundreds of floats, but the Germans are quite fond of their carnival traditions. While watching this parade I studied the Irish Wikipedia article about the venerable old Ogham alphabet, which was used on Irland and in the Celtic areas of Great Britain - btw. this article taught me that Wales in Gaelic is .. Little Britain, Bhreatain Bheag. And also that the vowels in Ogham are represented by 1 to 5 dots. Today I also found time to add to my Russian wordlists AND to study the part of my "Russisk Grammatik" that describes the use of imperfective/perfective infinites after different kinds of verbs. And I have copied/studied a page of Harrius Potter in Latin and the pages of my trusty old guide to Athens (in Greek) that describe Monastiraki and the Syndagma square. Edited by Iversen on 11 February 2013 at 12:19am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4713 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 3181 of 3959 11 February 2013 at 1:30pm | IP Logged |
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So the Ogham alphabet is not an alphabet, strictly speaking, but an abjad? (only
indicates consonants, vowels usually written with dots, like in Hebrew and Arabic?) 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6709 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3182 of 3959 11 February 2013 at 1:53pm | IP Logged |
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As far as I can understand from the article in Vicipéid the vowels are part of an alphabet, and they are written as dots. A pure abjad wouldn't have vowels at all (or they would just be written like diacritical signs added to the consonants). On the other hand a regular alphabet would have obligatory vowels, and they would be letters in their own right. But I suppose there aren't many pure abjads around these days. I am not an expert in Arabic and Hebrew writing systems, but as far as I know at least Arabic have stable, independent signs for the vowels - and at least one of these signs is not written as one or more dots. But I have read that at least the short vowels in Arabic can be left out at will (except in the Quran), and they are not part of the interconnection chain of letters so vowels clearly don't count as much in Arabic as consonants do.
So is Ogham an abjad? For your information the relevant passage in the Irish article says: " D'úsáidtí poncanna do na gutaí mar seo a leanas: ponc amháin = a, dhá phonc = o, trí phonc = u, ceithre phonc = e agus cúig phonc = i. D'úsáidtí stróiceacha do na consain." My translation: "Were-used dots for the vowels as follows: dot single = a, two dots = o, three dots = u, four dots = e and five dots = 1. Were-used strokes for the consonants" Ponc = point, or what? This description should be fairly unambiguous. Actually I read the Vicipéid article yesterday primarily to train my Irish, but today I went to Omniglot instead to get some reliable information about Ogham and got a surprise: the article showed the wowels as small lines across a long line - just as the consonants. Not dots. And in the English Wikipedia article about Ogham characterizes the vowel signs are called "notches" and they are show as small transversal strokes on a central line, just as in Omniglot. Btw. the scanned clip from The Book of Ballymote (Leabhar Bhaile an Mhóta) far down in the Omniglot article not only doesn't show any dots, but the writing doesn't look a bit like the examples higher up - with crossing lines, rectangles and other decorative anomalies galore. So now I'm really confused. Edited by Iversen on 11 February 2013 at 2:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4713 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 3183 of 3959 11 February 2013 at 3:27pm | IP Logged |
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In Hebrew you do not write the vowels (which are dots called niqqud), except for
biblical texts, and learning material for children and foreigners, or to resolve an ambiguity that is otherwise not possible to be resolved. In contemporary spelling, however, this old system was a little impractical and some Hebrew consonants double as vowels in certain circumstances according to certain rules. I don't know how this is resolved for Arabic as I have no knowledge of that language; Hebrew is the only language with an abjad I have a tiny bit of experience with. In Hebrew the vowels are specifically dots 95% of the time (sometimes there is a line as well). And I don't mean the dots inside the consonants that modify the consonant pronunciation - those are called dagesh. But it looks like I opened a can of worms here, haha. Edited by tarvos on 11 February 2013 at 3:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| mahasiswa Pentaglot Groupie Canada Joined 4438 days ago 91 posts - 142 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, German, Malay Studies: Arabic (Egyptian), Persian, Russian, Turkish, Mandarin, Hindi | Message 3184 of 3959 12 February 2013 at 1:28pm | IP Logged |
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I've studied Hebrew and Arabic, and my profs, the first a native speaker of Hebrew and the second a
native speaker of both, affirmed that aleph (alef and 'alif) in each language is a consonant, or better put, a letter of the alphabet, whereas the diacritics are vowels, not part of the alphabet. In reading and writing it's natural or even easy to apply the underlying phonological rules and produce the proper CV-sequences (consonant-vowel) when seeing a lump of consonants together. In Hebrew, vav is often understood in writing as a u or an o, and in Arabic, the waw is often understood as a u sound as well, unless it precedes an aleph. In Hebrew and Arabic, the gutteral stop (ayin/'ayn) if not syllable-final, is bound to have a diacritic vowel sound. Finally, the yod/yaa is almost always understood as an i-sound, save the times it comes before an alef/vav or 'alif/waw, or after one, making a single syllable or a diphthong, in the respective situations. They are often word final, and in Arabic, yaa also occurs as a gender/number/tense affix attached to the beginning of a verb root to mark singular masculine present conjugation, and nearly always is marked with fatḥah (the a-diacritic) or kasrah (the i-diacritic). Anything I missed can be attributed to the many more minor phonological rules, or be a product of my error. Otherwise, this is how I know modern Semitic abjads to be. I too was baffled at first by the narrow definition provided by my linguistics textbook, and I'd still claim that modern Semitic languages are abjad, and perhaps too, Iversen, your dear Vicipéid. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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