Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!) (Language Learning Log) Language Learning Forum

Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)
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artistscientist
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Message 1289 of 3959

14 September 2009 at 4:13am | IP Logged

Fasulye wrote:

Iversen wrote:

ESP: Estoy en este momento en Cebu en mi camara, donde escucho las noticias en
español de TVE. Parece que hay el riesgo de un huracán en la costa de Viscaya y además
hay 13 % de desempleados en España. Me gusta poder seguir las noticias de otros paises
en la televisión. Pero si hablamos del español aquí en las Filipinas puedo decir que
casi no existe, o existe solamente como otras lenguas estrangeras. Pero muchas personas
tienen, sin embargo, nombres españoles, y por eso hay un clave especial para el 'ñ' en
las teclados filipinos (pero yo estoy en esto momento con un teclado sin 'ñ'). Las
Filipinas tienen una situacion muy interessanter: hay lenguas regionales como el
cebuano aqui en Cebu, hay una lengua nacional, el tagalog o Pilipino, y hay la lengua
internacional que es evidentemente el Inglés, y la gente aqui pueden cambiar de lengua
a lengua durante una sola frasa. Yo tengo que hablar inglés..

¡Hola al las Filipinas! Pues estas en Cebu aca. Veo la cuidad Cebu en mi atlas. Mi
libro "Fischer Weltalmanach 2009" da los porcientos para los idiomas de este país:

En las Filpinas hablan las lenguas:

55 % Filipino
28 % Taglog
24 % Cebuano
10 % Ilocano
9 % Panay-Hilgaynon
6 % Bicol
3 % Español
3 % Chines
? % Ingles

Hasta el año 1898 las Filipinas estaban una colonia española. La independentia de la
Filipinas commencó en el día 4 julio 1946.

La población del país:

40 % Malayos
30 % Indonesios y Polynesios
10 % Negritos/Aeta
10 % Chineses
5 % Hindios

Muy bien, que puedes mirar la televisión española TVE aca. Pero para practicar una
lengua estranjera resta solamente el inglés.

Fasulye-Babylonia

PS: En Alemania hay también 11-13 % de desempleados como en Espana.
PS: the room = el cuarto, la habitación, la pieza ("camara" non existe).

I think you left out Ilonggo from the list of languages (unless I am mistaken and it is
considered a dialect).
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Fasulye
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Message 1290 of 3959

14 September 2009 at 4:28am | IP Logged

Your summary of August 2009

Here are my corrections:

06 AUG 2009

I couldn't go to my ESPERANTO GROUP (consisting of 5 people) because of my work. Obviously such a small group is not a congress.

08 AUG 2009

Here an astronomy mistake, not: meteor

I assume that you know the difference between meteors - meteorids - meteorites.

According to the leading theory the dinosaurs were wiped out by a giant METEORITE.

Unfortunately, I could never watch the meteor shower of the comet Swift-Tuttle.

Fasulye

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artistscientist
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Message 1291 of 3959

14 September 2009 at 5:10am | IP Logged

Iversen wrote:

I have spent the morning ("hapon") studying Tagalog/Pilipino, - or
rather despairing over the tools I have at my disposal. As I have mentioned earlier I
have made some bilingual Bible excerpts using Lexilogos (with the combination English -
Tagalog), and when I read through these I feel that that I generally can follow the
structure of the sentences, I just lack a lot of words and a better sense of the use of
certain very common 'small pesky grammar words'. So the logical thing is to look up the
unknown words to check the mean, true? But then I discover that only a fraction of even
words that I understand from the bilingual text are found in any of my three small
dictionaries, - and that's after having tried tricks like inserting different verbal
affixes, removing -ng and so forth.

Sometimes I have taken the English (or Italian) translation and through that found the
word I was trying to find looking it up in the usual manner, but I tend to think that
most of the words actually are lacking, not just difficult to find. And if I do find
the words then the indications may be contradictory. For instance "batiin" is
translated as a noun ('a compliment') in one dictionary and as a verb ('to
congratulate') in another. I'm generally not bothered by fuzzy word order borders, this
is after all also a common phenomenon in English, but then my dictionaries should
mention both interpretations. I have also tried to put my Bible quotes into the
translator of Google, but it generally gives up on translating half of the words.

So I have tried to find something easier to read. I have even peeked into some course
ware, and here I have for instance found the utterly simple
greeting
"magadong hapon po" ('good morning sir'). The word "po" is a marker of respect
(translated loosely into 'sir'), "hapon" ('morning', for once a word easily found in my
dictionaries), - but then "magadong"; first you remove -ng, which is a polyfunctional
parasite clinging to other words, but "magado" is absent from my dictionaries. In one
"magandá" is translated as 'hello', which clearly has something to do with the matter,
in another "magandá" is translated as the adjective "beautiful". In this case there is
luckily a hint in the original source that "magadang – magada" means 'very beautiful'.
But "magada" is not to be found in any of my dictionaries. And it is like that with
just about any sentence I try - I feel it like I'm studying a language with
dictionaries from a totally different language, and - let me tell you - this is
normally not a good idea.

Right now I have settled for Wikipedia articles in Filipino/Tagalog, and in the absence
of a regular translation I use Google's webpage translation utility. For instance "Ang
mamag o tarsier [Ingles] ay isang bertebrado sa klaseng mamalya" is translated as "The
mamag or tarsier [English] is a bertebrado the kind mamalya.". OK, I could probably
understand that even without Google: "The 'mamag' (Tarsier in English) is a vertebrate
of the class Mamalia" ("isa" is the number one, "ng" is a generalised connector strewn
all over the place, "ang" is a focalizer and "ay" is a copula verb which in addition
allows for the word order S V). Let's take one more: "Isa ito sa pinakamaliit na
mamalyang hayop na nagpapasuso sa mga anak" (Google: 'One is the smallest mammal
mamalyang the children'). "Isa" is still the number one, "ito" is a demonstrative,
"mga" a pluralizer and "sa" one more of these small multifunctional things that abound
in Tagalog/Filipino. The word "nagpapasuso" isn't found in any of my dictionaries, and
Google can't translate it. Actually "..papa.." is reduplication, and the prefix "nag-"
looks like "mag-" in the infinitive, so in the dictionary I would have expected to find
something like "magpauso", but it just isn't there. However in the context it must mean
"suckle" so my own tentative translation of this sentence would be "This one (is) the
smallest among mammalian animals (that) suckle its children".

If I can work my way through just a few hundred pages like this then I may gradually
develope an instinct for survival in the wilderness, and then I may eventually start
think about this as a language that in principle can be used for communication. But
right now it is more like solving jigsaw puzzles where half the cuts are missing.

Iversen,

It looks like you need better materials. Most Tagalog dictionaries are only useful as
paperweights. There are only 2 dictionaries that are currently available that are worth
while. Both are by James Leo English (English-Tagalog, Tagalog-English). I posted a
link to where you you can buy them (tough to find). Here is the link:

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=14425&PN=0&TPN=1000

Try "maganda," not "magada" (you were missing the n). You should be able to find it
very easily.

The root to "nagpapasuso" is "suso" meaning breast or nipple. So "nagpapasuso" means
to nurse or breast feed.

The problem is that there are so many possible words and overlapping word (same
spelling different meaning). You have to know the roots and cannot look up words
alphabetically (look up suso, instead of nagpapasuso). With a little practice you can
start teasing out what the roots are and look at a few different entries until you find
he root.

The James Leo English dictionaries are organized by root and are quite thorough. Good
luck and let me know if there is any other way I can help.
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Iversen
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Message 1292 of 3959

14 September 2009 at 9:26am | IP Logged

Artistscientist's observation that most Tagalog dictionaries are only useful as paperweights is supported by my observation that I can't find the words I need. And also in the observation that any Tagalog-to-anything dictionary should indicate wordroots, because you don't get anywhere in Tagalog without those. Because of this lack of suitable dictionaries I have done very little about my Tagalog lately, and since I started to plan my travel to the Balkans two months I have not done anything at all because I had more urgent needs concerning some of the languages spoken in that region. But I will try to check the sources you indicate and see whether I can get a decent dictionary for Tagalog, which is a must for anybody who intends to learn this language by selfstudy. Though of course this won't remove the possibility of spelling errors in the texts I use.

Besides I have corrected the errors in the resume as indicated by Fasulye

My work on the language learning guide leads in many directions. For instance I remembered yesterday that I once wrote something about the ideal text book, so now I just have to find it. I have also written something about the need to have repeating sentence structures with small, but strictly controlled differences. However in this case I know that I referred to a language guide for Cebuan I bought in January so this one is easier to find. But it is part of the same problem complex, namely how to structure preparatory texts.

Edited by Iversen on 14 September 2009 at 10:47am
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artistscientist
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Message 1293 of 3959

14 September 2009 at 1:47pm | IP Logged

Iversen wrote:

Artistscientist's observation that most Tagalog dictionaries are only
useful as paperweights is supported by my observation that I can't find the words I
need. And also in the observation that any Tagalog-to-anything dictionary should
indicate wordroots, because you don't get anywhere in Tagalog without those. Because of
this lack of suitable dictionaries I have done very little about my Tagalog lately, and
since I started to plan my travel to the Balkans two months I have not done anything at
all because I had more urgent needs concerning some of the languages spoken in that
region. But I will try to check the sources you indicate and see whether I can get a
decent dictionary for Tagalog, which is a must for anybody who intends to learn this
language by selfstudy. Though of course this won't remove the possibility of spelling
errors in the texts I use.

Besides I have corrected the errors in the resume as indicated by Fasulye

My work on the language learning guide leads in many directions. For instance I
remembered yesterday that I once wrote something about the ideal text book, so now I
just have to find it. I have also written something about the need to have repeating
sentence structures with small, but strictly controlled differences. However in this
case I know that I referred to a language guide for Cebuan I bought in January so this
one is easier to find. But it is part of the same problem complex, namely how to
structure preparatory texts.

I know I am beating a dead horse here, but I just cannot say enough about how good
these disctionaries are. When I first traveled to the Philippines I went to the
national bookstore in Manila. I was with a large group of new missionaries and all of
us were looking for dictionaries. The missionary that I would be working with was in
manila seeking treatment for a rather bad case of a plantar wart on his foot. He had
already been in the Philippines for over a year. Since he was readily available he
came with us as well.

At the bookstore we found the James Leo English dictionaries and a few others that
looked great. Since I would be working with him he insisted that I get the "English"
dictionaries even though the price was dramatically greater than the others. I
purchased the dictionaries (hard back Tagalog-English, and soft cover English-
Tagalog). My only regret is that I did not great hard back in both (I can no longer
find the English-Tagalog in hard back).

All the other newby missionaries thought I was wasting my money and purchased other
dictionaries with much lower price tags. They all ended up getting the James Leo
English dictionaries at a later time and thew away the other ones (they couldn't even
give them away, no one wanted them). These became so well known as the ONLY useful
Tagalog dictionaries that the mission headquarters started stocking them and picked up
new batches every time anyone traveled to Manila.

The Tagalog-English dictionary is based on root words. You look up the root and then
find the conjugated verb somewhere in the entry for instance:

sabi n. statement; something said. Ano ang sabi nila sa aking niluto?
What was their statement about my cooking?
kasabihan (1)n. (a) common saying: by-word: expression. Syn. Kawikaan.
Bukambibig. (b) epigram: a short, pointed saying. (2) adj. (cool.) famous; well
known. Syn. Tanyag. Bantog.
hindi masabi...
ibig sabihin...
Ipagsabi v. to tell something to many people...
makapagsabi v. to be able to say or utter something...
makisabi v. to ask or request someone to relay a message to another.
magsabi, sabihin v. to say...
etc...

This one entry covers two and a half pages of text. All of the more common uses and
some uncommonly uses of the word sabi are covered. The entire book is like this with
multiple examples of the conjugated word used in sentences. Now I have never seen a
GOOD Tagalog grammar, but you can pick up a great amount of grammar just by reading
this book. I hope this helps, and just to be clear, I have NO financial interest in
this book or in any of the websites I have listed.
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Fasulye
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Message 1294 of 3959

14 September 2009 at 8:31pm | IP Logged

IT: Oggi sera ho scritto il mio articolo sulla visita del planetario di Bochum. Il titolo della presentatzione era "Gefahr aus dem All?", un tema con molti aspecti diversi (asteroidi, supernovae, cometi...). Vorrei due volte per anno publicare qualcosa nella nostra revista del club d'astronomia. Dunque per il 2009 è sufficiente. Non è populare en mio club andare al planetario, gli altri membri non lo fanno mai.

ESP: Mi parolis kun mia Esperanto grupo pri la Universala Kongreso de 2011 en Köbenhavn. La resultato estas, ke la Düsseldorfa Esperantistino (kiu parolas la danan!) intencas pagi por mia la restadon en Köbenhavn kaj la trajnvojagxon. Ambaux Esperantistinoj el Düsseldorf volas kuniri kun mi (kaj mia nederlanda amiko) al Danio.Kaj mia kunlernanto de la turka lingvo Johannes estas preta kune kun mi eklerni la danan dum 7 monatoj gxis la kongreso en Danio. Do tio estas tre bona perspektivo por mi kaj la libron "Einstieg Dänisch" mi jam acxetis. Do, se cxio bone funkcias, ni kvarope vojagxos al Danio en 2011.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 14 September 2009 at 8:48pm
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Iversen
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Message 1295 of 3959

14 September 2009 at 9:43pm | IP Logged

Fasulye wrote:

ESP: Mi parolis kun mia Esperanto grupo pri la Universala Kongreso de 2011 en Köbenhavn. La resultato estas, ke la Düsseldorfa Esperantistino (kiu parolas la danan!) intencas pagi por mia la restadon en Köbenhavn kaj la trajnvojagxon.

Bona estas ke ti povas partopren la kongreso en 2011 sen paganta ĉio. Mi estas certa ke ti akiros bonan sperton tie.

Edited by Iversen on 14 September 2009 at 9:43pm
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Fasulye
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Message 1296 of 3959

17 September 2009 at 12:13am | IP Logged

NL: Daar kan men zich aardig mee profileren met het nieuwe voting system! Ik vind het heel goed dat ermee waardevolle bijdragen beloond kunnen worden en ik heb zelf al veel punten verdeeld op jouw nieuwgeschreven handleiding over "Learning Techniques".

Ik zal nu iets voor mij heel ongewoons doen, namelijk een Franstalig literair boek lezen. Dat boek zal van Jules Verne zijn en ik zal het morgen bestellen. Over de lectuur ervan zal ik in het Frans berichten schrijven in de Franstalige Book Club.

Ik heb hier in dit forum een beroepsastronoom ontdekt en heb bij hem om een taaluitwisseling verzocht. Zoiets zou ik heel boeiend vinden. Maar eens kijken, wat eruitkomt.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 17 September 2009 at 9:35am

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