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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3913 of 3959 13 July 2015 at 11:05am | IP Logged | ||
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EO: Sabato mi pasigis paron de horoj en busoj leganta la lastajn tri numerojn de la revuo de UEA "Esperanto" kiel parto de ĝardeno-zoologia-vizitanta ekspedicio (du bestoĝardenojn kaj unu muzeon kune kun mia fratrino). Krom tio mia lingva lernado estis mizera tiu ci semajnfino, pro alia projekto de la muzika sfero. Kiel mi jam skribis mi dedicis transporti tutajn miajn malnovajn audiokasedojn en WAW formato, kaj mi povas fari tion sen neebligi min de legi aŭ fari listojn de vortoj aŭ studi gramatikon, ĉar mi nur devas komenci kaj ĉesi la registradon por ĉiu flanko sur ĉiu bando. Kun proksimume 660 bandoj de 90 aŭ 100 minutoj ĝi estos longa procezo, sed ne nesuperebla. Sed mi akiris la ideon ke mi ankaŭ devus elskani miajn manskribitajn dosierujojn de la temoj de la muzika (kiu prenis multajn jarojn por produkti!), kaj tio postulas plenan koncentriĝon ĉe la komputilo. Mi povas enregistrigi kaj auskulti muzika samtempe, sed ne auskulti ankaŭ televidon aŭ legi tekstojn. Tamen tiu projekto ne daŭros tiel longe kiel la neakcelebla sonokopiado. Mi jam faris pli ol 400 jpg-dosierojn kun enhavolisto supre kaj pli sube skanata versio de la temoj.
EN: PS: I wanted to check one form in the text above and stumbled over a reference in Wikipedia to a study of native Esperantophone kids and their way of speaking Esperanto. They seem to have limited respect for endings, and especially the -n may be on the way out, at least if the 'French' variant of the language is pointing towards the future. Which wouldn't bother me too much: "jeg vil græde tørre tårer" as Loki disguised as Tøk said in an Old Norse text - 'I'll cry dry tears'. Us Danes and the hundreds of millions of Francophones and Anglophones manage just fine without any accusative of nouns. However the Slovene kids in the sample still used it - clearly because their surrounding language is tremendously case heavy. On a more general level it does surprises me that the kids also have cut down on several immensely practical suffixes, like ek-, -iĝi, -adi, re-, el-. I couldn't see how I could express myself without the passivizer -iĝi, and I wonder how the kids survive without it. From the list of neologisms in the article it doesn't seem that they are afraid of derivations. I think my own favorite is "maltajpilo" (the delete key on a key - or in other words: the anti-type-tool on a 'klavaro', i.e. a thing full of keys). EO: Vidu ankaŭ ĉi tiun tezon, kiu interalie traktas 'denaskajn' esperantistojn: "Native Esperanto as a Test Case for Natural Language" de Jouko Lindstedt. Edited by Iversen on 14 July 2015 at 11:04am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Stelle Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada tobefluent.com Joined 4143 days ago 949 posts - 1686 votes Speaks: French*, English*, Spanish Studies: Tagalog | Message 3914 of 3959 13 July 2015 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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I briefly thought about learning some Esperanto, but then decided that my time would be better spent working on
the languages that I'm already learning. Your description of Esperantophone children makes me question that decision! I find it absolutely fascinating that there are children (and adults) whose first language is Esperanto. I remember watching interviews with native Esperanto speakers, and I found it fascinating that I could hear the language of the majority in their accents. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3915 of 3959 13 July 2015 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | ||
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Kids do have a way with languages. Mostly they are go along with the first the parents and later their friends speak, but what do they do if they sense that their parents aren't really top notch speakers of their language. I recently read a book by Pinker, and in the first chapter there is a description of the way Creoles languages are created by children, who listen to the crappy pidgins of their parents and impose some kind of linguistic structure on the mess - and in the process they invent a language with a fullblown set of grammatical mechanisms. Or in total parallel with this: in Nicaragua sign language apparently arose when deaf youngsters for the first time were brought together by the Sandinistas to receive some education. As part of that they were taught lip reading and other things, but according to Pinker with limited results. However the kids themselves evolved a sign pidgin for easier communications. And then follows the surprising second phase: when second generation babies were brought up watching (NOT listening to) this messy pidgin they imposed linguistic structures upon it and created a second sign language, this time with a full gamut off grammatical tools.
I don't know whether Pinker got this right, and I ask myself how a consensus can arise among babies scattered over a lot of households, but I do think that children who grow up learning a language from nought have to identify, generalize and weed out until they have learnt their first language. Those who learn their second language are less likely to treat language learning as a game or construction process and they have other things to tend to. Does this then mean that adults should start learning languages solely from inference based on native input? No, absolutely not. We don't have time, we don't get immediate responses, we are presented with too difficult texts and we would be seen as drunk or weird if we blabbeed away as freely as babies do. However in contrast to kids we can get input about linguistic structure and the meaning of specific words from written sources, and we can use those ingredients to interpret and organize the kind of input we get - which makes our learning process more streamlined and efficient. Which is just as well as we normally have less time to spend on our language learning projects. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3916 of 3959 14 July 2015 at 11:03am | IP Logged | ||
I wrote this in another thread, but quote it here because it actually was the only kind of language study I did last evening. And the reason is of course the one I described yesterday, namely that I have decided that I also want scans of my handwritten theme catalogue for the music cassettes I'm transferring to sound files. And that takes some concentrated work, but I expect to have finished this task before leaving for Lille. I have got the UEA magazine in my bag for reading in-the-bus-back-home-from-my-job, so I expect to get my Esperanto in decent shape before leaving, but I have not had time to read up on my Dutch/Flemish so I'll just have to hope that it will be less rusty than my Esperanto was in Berlin earlier this year. Edited by Iversen on 16 July 2015 at 10:56am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3917 of 3959 16 July 2015 at 10:36am | IP Logged | ||
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Guess what day it is today? July 16 2015 - the day that the DNS of HTLAL is scheduled to run out according to Whois. However there is one interesting thing to notice: it is stated on whois that the DNS should run out at 4:00, but according to which time zone? I see the exact moment in the form "2015-07-16T04:00:00Z", and I'm not sure what the code "00Z" refers to. But I could log on a moment ago so we're not dead yet. And maybe the renewal (if the DNS has been renewed) just hasn't been noticed by Whois yet. Let's see what happens tomorrow...
My theme collection scanning goes forward at the expected pace - I finished Vivaldi yesterday so the end is nigh. As for transferring the actual recordings I have just finished Berwald - a marvellous Swedish composer (1797-1868) who definitely deserves to be better known. But to get from Berwald to Zemlinsky will take many months... SW: OK, vem var då denna Berwald? Han var en lovande tonsättare, men var tvungen att leva på andra typer av jobb det mesta av livet, och när han dog fanns det inte ens pengar för en kista. Hans viktigaste verk var fyra symfonier (plus ett fragment), skrivna på ett tonspråk som jag skulle karakterisera som en korsning mellan Beethoven och Berlioz. Emellertid har till och med ordningen av dessa diskuterats. Man har dock hamnat på följande numrering: Sinfonie sérieuse (1841–42), Sinfonie capricieuse, (1842), Sinfonie singulière (1845) ock Symfoni nr 4 i Ess-dur ("naïve") (1845). Låt mig också säga att jag är ganska trött på att Paretos lag även gäller för musik. Det finns en häpnadsväckande antal okända tonsättare som skrivit häpnadsväckande goda verk som snillt kan mäta sig med standardrepertoaren. Jag har i min samling försökt begränsa mängden av Bach och Beethoven och Mozart etc. till förmån för utomstående såsom Berwald, men på de klassiska radio- och tv-kanaler är det ovanligt att höra dem. Och det är särskilt problematiskt på TV eftersom det endast är ett dussin galjonsfigurer bland kompositörerna (och ett halvdussin topdirigenter) som spelas in på video. Edited by Iversen on 16 July 2015 at 12:58pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Arnaud25 Diglot Senior Member France Joined 3841 days ago 129 posts - 235 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Russian | Message 3918 of 3959 16 July 2015 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | ||
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3919 of 3959 16 July 2015 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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OK, then the expiry doomsday hour has passed, and we are still alive.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3920 of 3959 17 July 2015 at 11:28am | IP Logged | ||
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... and we still are.
LA: Quid novum de universo dicendum est? Scilicet omnes nunc sciunt quod vehiculum spatiale "Nova Horizonta" planetusculum Pluton praeterivit et in duas horas imagines eis ad Terram misit quae demonstraverunt Plutonem haud crateres habere ut de astronomis expectatus, sed montes ruprestres. Nunc physices omnia sua doctrina de formatione corporium caelestium recogitare debeunt. EO: En la buso-reen-hejmen-de-laboro hieraŭ mi legis artikolon de Dennis Keefe en la revuo Esperanto, kie li skribis tion: (...) la utiligado de Esperanto ofte restas enklube, kie esperantistoj uzas Esperanton por paroli nur pri Esperanto, sed pri la mondo ekster Esperantujo. (..) Tiu neutiligo de ESperanto pro ekster-Esperantaj aferoj bremsas la desvatiĝon de la lingvo Mi povas nur konsenti, sed en Lillo oni povos auskultu ekzemplon prelegon de lingvo hititan, kaj kun pli ol du mil partoprenantoj ne estas neimageble ke povus sukcesi je diskuti ion alian ol la E-lingvon. Eble kelkaj el ili aŭdis pri la tenazaj tardigradoj ('bjørnedyr' in la dana lingvo), kiun mi menciis en Berlino. FR: Et comme prévu, j'ai fini la numérisation de mon catalogue de thèmes musicaux. Il a duré beaucoup de temps pour faire ce catalogue, où j'ai du trouver des partitions pour certaines oeuvres, pour d'autres les thèmes étaient dans un livre qu'on pouvait seulement consulter 'in situ' à la bibliothèque municipale, mais pour une grande partie des oeuvres j'ai du noter les notes moi-même à l'oreille, ce qui évidemment a produit beaucoup de fautes, mais souvent aussi des renditions assez fidèles (comme j'ai pu constater dans les cas où j'ai trouvé les partitions plus tard). Et porquoi écrire ceci en Français? Eh bien, surtout parce que j'ai regarder la distribution des oeuvres sur les cassettes musicales et trouvé quelque chose par ci et par là qu'on peut améliorer maintenant que tout devient numérique. Et la majori´t des changes concernent des compositeurs et compositrices francais. Il faut considérérer ma situation en 1991-92 où j'ai fait les enregistrements. J'ai utilisés des CDs et disques de plusier bibliothèques, des enregistrements noveaux de la radio et une collection de cassettes vétustes que j'avait ammassée depuis les années 60 - fortunément déjà avec des renseigments sur noms des oeuvres, des compositeurs et des musiciens plus la durée comptée en demi-minutes. Et j'ai essayé réunir les oeuvres de chaque compositeur sur le nombre minimale de bandes sonores ... mais souvent j'ai rencontré de nouvelles oeuvres de compositeurs dont j'avaient déjà enregistrés la majorité de leurs oeuvres. Et ceci concerne surtout des compositeurs moins connus, parce que j'avait plus d'inclination d'ajouter encore quelques oeuvres d'un compositeur 'rare et difficile' que de quelque'un pour lequel il avai était facile de remplir les cassettes. Et entre ces compositeurs rares et précieux il y avait une poignée de compositrices rares et précieuses - et quelques unes de ces dames étaient des françaises. Par example j'avait déjà 'achevé' le violiniste Bériot quand j'ai rencontré une version de son premier concert pour violon et orchestre, dit 'Militaire'. Donc j'ai du le placer sur la côté B d'un nouvelle cassette, parce la côté B de la cassette "Bériot 1" était rempli, entre autres avec des oeuvres de Cécile Chaminade. Maintenant je vois que je peux coupler "Bériot 1 côté A" avec "Bériot 2 côté B" (celui avec le concert militaire no. 1), coupler "Bériot 1 côté B" (avec des oeuvres de Chaminade) avec "Chaminade 1 côté A" ce qui implique que toutes les oeuvres de cette dame que je possède dès maintenant seront réunies sur la même cassette numérique. Et la côté A dudite cassette "Bériot 2" peut être combinée avec "Chaminade 1 côté B" avec d'autres oeuvres de compositrices comme par exemple Germaine Tailleferre, mais surtout de la Vénézulienne María Teresa Gertrudis de Jesús Carreño García, dite Teresa Carreño, qui a composé un des meilleurs quattuors pour cordes que j'ai jamais écouté. Puisque toutes mes trouvailles carreñanes dès cette opération sont réunies je vais nommer cette pseudo-cassette combinée "Carreño 1" Mais pas maintenant - il va durer jusq'àu transfert de "Chaminade 1" avant que j'aie à ma disposition toutes les enregistrements nécessaires pour l'opération décrite ci-dessus. Et puisque je puis étudier mes langues en même temps que je transfère mes cassettes en fichiers WAW, j'aurait pu étudier dès maintenant - si ce n'était que je dois aussi visiter ma famille et aller a Lille (et puis Mons et Malines)... Edited by Iversen on 11 August 2015 at 7:34pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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