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Native teachers without linguistic talent | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4621 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 73 of 106 30 August 2013 at 9:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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In the UK we have some (native born) kids who can barely read and write in English, never mind a foreign
language. Surely these people must also exist in The Netherlands and Sweden. Teenagers with learning difficulties or those who are totally disengaged with the education system. What sort of levels in English and German are reached by the Dutch kids who are academically poor? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 74 of 106 30 August 2013 at 10:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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Define academically poor. I think those who only do vocational education only speak
acceptable tourist phrases, perhaps somewhat more, they will certainly be understandable when speaking English (it also depends where they are from...). I think the English level is something like B1? Having someone without any English is rare, but it doesn't really have to be very good... They will usually forget all their German. Edited by tarvos on 30 August 2013 at 10:12pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4621 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 75 of 106 30 August 2013 at 10:33pm | IP Logged | ||
By "academically poor" I mean the kids who find themselves in the bottom sets for maths and their native language. The ones who seriously struggle with numeracy and literacy. I guess many of these people end up in low-paying menial jobs where zero English is required. I wonder what sort of language skills they retain into adulthood. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 76 of 106 30 August 2013 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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Not much, is my guess. But those are not that many.
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| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4621 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 77 of 106 30 August 2013 at 11:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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I guess most people who actively study languages and reach a high level tend to be quite intelligent. I never
got into languages seriously until I was 32 but I have a degree in maths, so I guess I'm not stupid. Maybe it's easy to forget that the average guy on the street might not have the same level of education and academic ability. That said, I think almost anyone can learn via immersion. Hundreds of footballers are testament to that. But effective studying does require a certain measure of cognitive skills. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 78 of 106 30 August 2013 at 11:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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I don't think they are necessarily that intelligent. It's more about cultural
expectations. In the Netherlands, it is a cultural expectation that you learn English because you cannot expect to handle all affairs in Dutch as a regular human adult. If you have severe cognitive impairments that is another story. If not, school will teach you that amount of necessary English to function in your line of work - if that is a low-paid menial labour type of job, such as carpenter, or sales clerk, then A2 English is where you'll go. For academic it's B2-C1 I think. The goals of each level of education (we have a tiered system) are centrally stipulated and linked to CEFR. Most people, if they pass the English exam, would pass a B1. B2 is for people who have done the "havo" and B2-C1 thereabouts is university level. Many people learn enough English that B2 is very common and acceptable. B1-B2 is sort of the minimum acceptable standard unless you were in a track that prepared for real menial labour jobs. This may wither due to disuse. But since English is super popular, also the media and their movies, it's just kind of a cultural expectation that you learn. I have met people who have had poor to no English, but they are rare. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4621 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 79 of 106 30 August 2013 at 11:50pm | IP Logged | ||
What situations could not be handled in Dutch? If you don't live in a tourist area and your job involves dealing only with Dutch citizens, when would you need to resort to English within the Netherlands? I know it may sound as if I'm deliberately trying to pick holes in your arguments but I wonder if English is all-pervasive in the lives of people outside the professional classes. Edited by beano on 30 August 2013 at 11:51pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4289 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 80 of 106 31 August 2013 at 1:12am | IP Logged | ||
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I wonder if it is rare to learn Dutch to at least B2 then? I am a chemical engineer by
degree (I also have mathematics and biology, but I am not sure if these are wanted in Dutch-speaking countries as much as the former), and there are several work posts for Shell internationally. I am currently using Dutch language books that are meant for getting to B2 and see if someday I could work in the Netherlands. Surely in the NEtherlands however, business is still done in Dutch? Or is it like some parts of Scandinavia where English is still used in technology or business? Regardless, I still want to get my Dutch to C1 within the next ten years, but I would imagine it would be useful for an English-speaking engineer immigrant to the Netherlands. For example, if one works as a process control officer for a pharmaceutical operations facility, surely their workplace and computer data would be in Dutch? Edited by 1e4e6 on 31 August 2013 at 1:16am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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