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Tiktok’s TAC 2013 Estonian Log jäŋe/ledús | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Tiktok Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 5138 days ago 29 posts - 40 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Estonian Personal Language Map | Message 9 of 36 16 January 2013 at 8:55pm | IP Logged | ||
Before my most recent Christmas visit, most conversation has been in English although I have spoken more and more each time I am there - little snippets and remarks here and there but my hearing abilities have always let me down as I have always struggled to understand people's responses and hence switched back to English. Between Summer 2012 and this Christmas, I watched a lot of Estonian television and also made the effort to speak to myself every morning whilst driving to work (Iga päev, kui ma sõidan tööle, ma räägin iseendaga eesti keeles). I found out that this practice in speaking and listening had made a huge difference to my language skills and I spoke quite a lot of Estonian during my visit including some periods of discussion lasting several hours whilst wandering around Tallinn. My next visit to Tallinn will be in late April so practice between now and then will be aimed at more listening and talking whilst also refreshing/strengthening my vocabulary using ANKI. As for moving there - well I would love to but am currently at the mercy of the UK property market. I will get to stay there one day though come hell or high water! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiktok Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 5138 days ago 29 posts - 40 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Estonian Personal Language Map | Message 10 of 36 21 January 2013 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | ||
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Update for W/E 20th January
4 hours reading news articles from print editions of Postimees and Õhtuleht. I spent some of the time reading trying to concentrate on the case form of direct objects in sentences as this is an area of weakness for me still. Reviewed Lesson 28 (again) from Estonian Textbook - The Direct Object. 1 hour writing in Estonian online with one of my friends from Tallinn. This weeks useful construction from my online discussion - Ma oleksin pidanud ... = I should have ... : Ma oleksin pidanud küsima. I should have asked. Ma oleksin pidanud koju jääma. I should have stayed at home. Ma oleksin pidanud varem magama minema. I should have gone to sleep earlier. Ma oleksin pidanud vähem viina jooma. I should have drunk less vodka. Ma oleksin pidanud rohkem sööma. I should have eaten more. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiktok Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 5138 days ago 29 posts - 40 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Estonian Personal Language Map | Message 11 of 36 21 January 2013 at 10:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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Amusing literal translations of Estonian Words.
I have been noting these during the time I have been studying Estonian for no other purpose than they amuse me (and are very memorable because of it). I will add to the list as I find new ones. Presented as Estonian word/phrase, English equivalent, literal translation. Nokkloom, platypus, beak animal. Ajalugu, history, time story. Vihmauss, worm, rain snake. Seenevihma, drizzle, mushroom rain. Kilpkonn, tortoise, shield frog. Raudtee, railway, iron road. Pesukaru, raccoon, washing bear. Pistikupesa, socket (power outlet), plug nest. Süüteküünal, spark plug, ignition candle. Mul on kõht lahti, I have diarrhoea, I have stomach open. Mul on kõht kinni, I have constipation, I have stomach closed. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiktok Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 5138 days ago 29 posts - 40 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Estonian Personal Language Map | Message 12 of 36 03 February 2013 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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Estonian Update
Progress limited by (excess) work these last two weeks but 5 hours of reading, mostly Õhtuleht and Postimees print articles but also the first chapter of Puhastus (see my sources). Other than reading, I have watched two episodes of Elu Keset Linna and I have been reviewing chapter 28 (again) in Estonian Textbook : The Direct Object. In English, this is very straightforward as the direct object (the thing which receives the action of a verb) takes the same form as it would as a subject except for pronouns : The dog buried a bone. I read the newspaper. We know them. They like us. etc. etc. In Estonian, this is the one thing that remains just out of my grasp as the direct object in a sentence can take one of three different case forms depending on the circumstances involved. The rules seem pretty straightforward : The Total Object is used in sentences when all three of the following apply : 1, The sentence is affirmative. 2, The action of the verb leads to completion. 3, The object is affected in its entirety. In a sentence where a command is given, the total object is in the nominative case. In a declarative sentence, the total object is in the genitive case if singular and nominative if plural. Commands Võta raamat! (nom. sing.) Take the book! Võta raamatud! (nom. pl.) Take the books! Declarations Ma võtsin raamatu. (gen. sing.) I took the book. Ma võtsin raamatud. (nom. pl.) I took the books. The Partial Object is used in sentences when any one of the following apply : 1, The sentence is negative. 2, The verb expresses an ongoing, incomplete, or repeated action. 3, The action of the verb is directed towards an undetermined or indefinite portion of the object. The partial object is always in the partitive case, whether a singular or plural noun is involved. Commands Ära võta raamatut! (part. sing.) Don't take the book! Declarations Ma ei võtnud raamatut. (part. sing.) I did not take the book. There are also quite a few verbs expressing feelings, using senses or being continual actions which always take the partitive as well as the verb mängima 'to play' when an instrument or game is involved (just to complicate matters). This is the one part of Estonian which I really have trouble with and invariably get about half of the cases wrong. I am thinking of adding regular writing to my study routine and having one of my Estonian friends check over my efforts. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7158 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes  20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 13 of 36 03 February 2013 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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I know how you feel as I had similar problems getting my head around the concept in Finnish. The funny thing is that this complexity with the direct object never bothered me that much when I was using TY Estonian (although I never studied Estonian to the same degree as I have done so far with Finnish)
There were four steps which I followed so that I've reached the point where I can now pick with about 75% accuracy the correct case on the first try for a direct object in Finnish. 1) Sever the link between "accusative" and "direct object" (this is an example of the misguided Romance/Germanic bias in teaching Finnish as a foreign language in my view :-S) 2) Start to think of the process using this flow chart. 3) Get comfortable with declining the direct object in isolated sentences (basically drills or fill-in-the-blank exercises). 4) Pay attention to its use by native speakers and inwardly rationalize why that direct object was in one case rather than another. The process is quite similar in Estonian, and I could see you doing a fair bit of 3) and 4) in order to get used to which case "sounds right" (as opposed to having to think about it and justify your choice of case internally) 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Tiktok Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 5138 days ago 29 posts - 40 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Estonian Personal Language Map | Message 14 of 36 03 February 2013 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hi Chung,
The flowchart (2) looks very, very useful - I will work my way through that this week. I was planning to add some writing/drills to my studies and I think this will be the best way forward for me. I have also been trying to pay attention to the case forms of the direct object whilst reading - some make sense but there are odd occasions where I still can't see why the particular case form would have been chosen. The problem then is working out why that case form was actually used :) My only criticism of Estonain Textbook (Tuldava) regarding the Direct Object is that many of the examples he has chosen in example texts are nouns which are the same in genitive and partitive which renders the example somewhat useless when you are trying to work out the case form used :P Edited by Tiktok on 04 February 2013 at 12:04am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7158 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 15 of 36 04 February 2013 at 1:44am | IP Logged | ||
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Just remember that the flow chart is for Finnish rather than Estonian despite the otherwise high similiarity in this aspect of the grammar (in that chart, I replace "accusative" with "genitive" because the direct object can take a form that matches the genitive - it's not distinctively marked as the difference in labelling suggests). However I do think that you could make a similar flow chart for Estonian direct objects showing the factors that you know will force that direct object to take one of partitive, genitive or nominative.
My biggest problems with Tuldava's course were that there's no audio and the exercises are too few and too simplistic. Its explanations are pretty good though. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiktok Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 5138 days ago 29 posts - 40 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Estonian Personal Language Map | Message 16 of 36 13 February 2013 at 10:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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Estonian Update
Mostly reading again this week (work/home balance improves in a months time after the busy season is over - praegu mul on liiga palju tööd) with specific emphasis on identifying direct object usage and case which is making more sense on most occasions. Watched three episodes of Elu Keset Linna. My first take on an Estonian Direct Object decision tree (c.f Chung's Finnish flowchart linked a couple of posts above). Negative? Yes -> Partitive. ¦ No ¦ Number greater than one? Yes -> Partitve (sing.). ¦ No ¦ Partitive verb (feelings, use of senses, continual actions)? Yes -> Partitive. ¦ No ¦ Fractional Quantity (also pair, many etc. etc.)? Yes -> Partitve. ¦ No ¦ Weight or size (few, full, bunch etc. etc.)? Yes -> Partitive. ¦ No ¦ Undetermined or indefinite portion of object? Yes -> Partitive. ¦ No ¦ Ongoing (present tense), incomplete or repeated action? Yes -> Partitive. ¦ No ¦ Command (imperative)? Yes -> Nominative (sing. and pl.) ¦ No ¦ Declaration (statement of fact)? Singular -> Genitive, Plural -> Nominative. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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