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I still can’t distinguish hard and soft S | ||
Tags: Phonetics | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Surtalnar Tetraglot Groupie Germany Joined 4395 days ago 52 posts - 67 votes  Speaks: German*, Latin, English, Spanish Studies: Arabic (Written), Arabic (classical) | Message 1 of 12 06 February 2013 at 5:09pm | IP Logged |
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I have the problem that I can't differntiate hard S and soft S. I know how to write it
correct, but I can't hear the difference, and don't know what is what it, when I say it. This problem exists for me in every language. Currently I learn French, and there the problem occurs again for me, and it's important in this language, to differentiate both phonemes. In my French learning book I have a pronounciation exercise: Hear the difference between "Ils ont" and "Ils sont" So: Ils ont = [z] (hard s) Ils sont = [s] (soft s) But I just can't hear the difference, and "Ils sont" sounds for me harder than the first one, although "Ils sont" should be the softer one... Is there a trick to learn to differentiate it? I just don't get it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4843 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 2 of 12 06 February 2013 at 5:46pm | IP Logged |
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You're confusing "hard" and "soft" s. "Ils ont" is soft or voiced, while "Ils sont" is hard or voiceless. Probably, the IPA symbols have caused the confusion, as a German z is harder than an s, whereas [z] denotes a voiced s and [s] a voiceless s.
I hope this helped a little bit. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Surtalnar Tetraglot Groupie Germany Joined 4395 days ago 52 posts - 67 votes Speaks: German*, Latin, English, Spanish Studies: Arabic (Written), Arabic (classical) | Message 3 of 12 06 February 2013 at 6:03pm | IP Logged |
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Thank you for your help!
I know that the German z is harder than the French z. I compare the German s with French s, and the German ß with the French z. But what is the difference between voiceless and voiced? And which of both sounds harder now - "Ils sont" oder "Ils ont"? 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5380 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 4 of 12 06 February 2013 at 6:43pm | IP Logged |
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I think you are bound to never understand this so long as you use the terms hard and soft, which are not only inappropriate terms, but are never used when refering to French sounds.
This is strictly a matter of voicing, ie. the presence of vocal chord vibration or not. The difference between s and z is the same as between p/b, t/s, sh/zh (ch/j in French), f/v, etc. This distinction is just as clear in German as it is in French, so this shouldn't be an issue, except perhaps in relation to the spelling. Liaison is a separate problem though. ils sont = [il.sɔ̃ ] -- s as in "weiss" (ɔ̃ = nasal o) ils ont = [il.zɔ̃ ] -- z as in "sieben" The liaison consonant is never an s, but always its voiced counterpart, z. 8 persons have voted this message useful | |
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4520 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 5 of 12 06 February 2013 at 7:21pm | IP Logged |
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The problem in German is that voiced consonants very often get devoiced (they are only voiced in voiced contexts), and in some regions that happens more often than in others (here in Austria, voiced consonants don't really exist). Even in Standard German, voiced plosives are realized without voicing (almost) all the time, they differ from voiceless plosives only in closure duration, voice onset time and aspiration, but not in the actual voicing. So it might be a bit of a problem to compare sounds in German with sounds in French/Spanish etc.
As for the [s]/[z] in German: even if the <s> is supposed to be pronounced as a [z] (like in Arekkusu's example 'sieben'), it is in fact pronounced as a [s] when there is no voiced context. If you pronounce a word in isolation, the onset (=the first sound) is never in a voiced context. As to the problem at hand: the [z] sound is the buzzing sounds bees and flies make when they fly. Try to imitate that sound and you get it about right. Your voice box/larynx (germ. Kehlkopf) should vibrate a bit when you make this sound, place your fingers on it when you try out this sound. Once you realize how to make those sounds in isolation, it should be easier to distinguish them in running speech. Edited by daegga on 06 February 2013 at 7:26pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Surtalnar Tetraglot Groupie Germany Joined 4395 days ago 52 posts - 67 votes Speaks: German*, Latin, English, Spanish Studies: Arabic (Written), Arabic (classical) | Message 6 of 12 06 February 2013 at 9:16pm | IP Logged |
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Thanks all for your help, I now understand it.
I was really confused by the German z. The German/Italian letter z sounds "harder" than the letter s, and the French/English letter z sounds "softer" than letter s. But now I got it: French z (ils ont) = voiced (sounds softer in my ears) French s (ils sont) = voiceless (sounds harder in my ears) 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 7 of 12 06 February 2013 at 11:05pm | IP Logged |
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The German/Italian z is a completely different sound.
this z is to s what ch is to sh (the English ones) z:s=ch:sh. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6908 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 8 of 12 06 February 2013 at 11:30pm | IP Logged |
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Surtalnar, how do you pronounce "eyes" and "ice" in English? With the same s or not? You (hopefully) have the voiced s in "eyes" and the unvoiced in "ice", but if not, you should. The same principle applies.
6 persons have voted this message useful |
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