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Serbo-Croatian

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winters
Trilingual Heptaglot
Senior Member
Italy
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Speaks: Croatian*, Serbian*, Russian*, English, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek
Studies: Greek, French, Hungarian

 
 Message 9 of 96
13 January 2007 at 7:28am | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:
I think what winters meant is that MODERN STANDARD Croatian and MODERN STANDARD Serbian are two variants of Štokavski.

Exactly.
I have not come yet towards better explanation than that, because it is incorrect to say they are the same language (see my previous post), likewise, it is incorrect to claim them to be fully separated languages which are different one from another to an extent other Slavic languages are, for that simply does not stand.
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Chung
Diglot
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 Message 10 of 96
13 January 2007 at 12:12pm | IP Logged 
Captain Haddock wrote:
Yes, but the point is: "Serbian has the same isoglosses within it that Croatian does."

In other words, you can point to a way a Croatian says a particular thing, and say "aha, that's Croatian", except that there will be parts of Serbia where they say it the same way — and vice versa. So the labels turn out to be useless. Instead, linguists sometimes name the dialects after their distinguishing features (e.g. the Štokavian dialect, which is spoken in parts of all four Serbo-Croatian countries).

In other words, according to Mr. Daniels, who knows much more on the topic than I do, there are dialectical variations of Serbo-Croatian, but they don't line up with the political map or the political notion of Serbian vs. Croatian. The only difference between "Serbian" and "Croatian" is the script.


If you let "Croatian" = "Modern Standard Croatian" and "Serbian" = "Modern Standard Serbian", then they are different as winters has shown. However, I see your point and that of Daniels. Namely, saying that you speak "Croatian" or "Serbian" can still mean little since one's dialect or variant shows a mix of features (esepcially if you speak a form of štokavsko-ijekavski - and this variant is present in all of the successor states.) and don't always fit in the neat confines of a prescribed standard language or the national boundaries dictated by academic and political elitists.

For example, people living along the border of Croatia and Serbia (i.e. northwestern Serbia and northeastern Croatia) speak štokavsko-ekavski or štokavsko-ikavski. Unless a speaker from this region tells you that he/she is Croatian or Serbian or shows his/her birth certificate and family tree, not even Croats and Serbs can reliably tell the difference between the people here on the basis of their dialectal use alone. All that is certain at first inspection is that the people on the Croatian side learn that they are Croats and thus their language must be Croatian. The people on the Serbian side learn that they are Serbs and thus their language must be Serbian.

In an article by Damir Kalogjera of the University of Zagreb he noted that during the civil war, refugees from a Croatian town (Vukovar) in this border region suffered accusations of speaking Serbian from other Croats. The dialect of these refugees sounded too close to Serbian in the mind of some in spite of the Croatian background of the refugees.

Edited by Chung on 14 January 2007 at 12:19am
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Captain Haddock
Diglot
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Japan
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 Message 11 of 96
13 January 2007 at 11:27pm | IP Logged 
Thanks, Chung, that's a good example of what I'm getting at.

Likewise, I speak English differently than Americans from Texas or New York, but there are also Americans who speak just like I do, especially in the Pacific Northwest. It would be silly for me to try to claim I speak Canadian and they speak American.
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Marin
Triglot
Groupie
Croatia
Joined 7058 days ago
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Speaks: Croatian*, English, Italian
Studies: German, Russian, Persian

 
 Message 12 of 96
26 January 2007 at 10:37am | IP Logged 
Modern standards of Croatian and Serbian are very similar but different. If someone speaks in standard of his/her language, you can immediately tell the difference is it a Serbian or Croatian. The question seems to be political and linguistic, but from this topic (and any other which has been opened, and it seems that they're being opened periodically) it seems that people from the BCS region insist on linguistic differences and try to give examples, while 'foreigners' point fingers about 'natives' being 'too political' and 'oversensitive' and at the same time talking about little more than politics and history. I don't care how those languages are called, I see and feel the difference between the languages, and when I have literature for my studies written in Serbian (latin letters) I still have problems of adjusting and sometimes even understanding. Call it whatever you like, but can we put this topic(s) to rest? Nothing new every time....
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Chung
Diglot
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 Message 13 of 96
09 February 2007 at 11:35am | IP Logged 
Hey Captain,

Here's a link to an interesting exchange for you.

Even translators who come from the Balkans can't always agree if it's one of: Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin, Serbian or just a mishmash...

Edited by Chung on 09 February 2007 at 11:48am
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Marin
Triglot
Groupie
Croatia
Joined 7058 days ago
50 posts - 51 votes 
Speaks: Croatian*, English, Italian
Studies: German, Russian, Persian

 
 Message 14 of 96
10 February 2007 at 4:32pm | IP Logged 
If you translate sth, that doesn't make you a translator. I can tell you it's not Macedonian or Croatian ;)
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MarcoDiAngelo
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Yugoslavia
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 Message 15 of 96
22 April 2007 at 9:57am | IP Logged 
Then I've been a triglot since I have learned to speak... I can speak 3 (and maybe soon 4 if there is going to be Montenegrin) languages : Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian. It isn't possible, is it? It is one language, no matter how much they are trying to sepparate it

Edited by MarcoDiAngelo on 22 April 2007 at 9:59am
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MarcoDiAngelo
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Yugoslavia
Joined 6446 days ago
208 posts - 345 votes 
Speaks: Serbian*, English, Spanish, Russian
Studies: Thai, Polish

 
 Message 16 of 96
22 April 2007 at 10:06am | IP Logged 
Marin wrote:
Modern standards of Croatian and Serbian are very similar but different. If someone speaks in standard of his/her language, you can immediately tell the difference is it a Serbian or Croatian. The question seems to be political and linguistic, but from this topic (and any other which has been opened, and it seems that they're being opened periodically) it seems that people from the BCS region insist on linguistic differences and try to give examples, while 'foreigners' point fingers about 'natives' being 'too political' and 'oversensitive' and at the same time talking about little more than politics and history. I don't care how those languages are called, I see and feel the difference between the languages, and when I have literature for my studies written in Serbian (latin letters) I still have problems of adjusting and sometimes even understanding. Call it whatever you like, but can we put this topic(s) to rest? Nothing new every time....
I cannot believe what you are posting here. If there is no need for translator at all, then it is the same language. You "feel" the differences just like American who listen British version of English. There are small ,very small grammatical differences, but that doesn't make Serbian and Croatian two langs. Before the war there was one and only - Serbocroatian.


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