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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6709 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 145 of 261 19 October 2012 at 11:41am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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The words for 'understand' may mostly be compounds, but English 'grasp' and the Old Norse 'skilja' (which has lived on in at least Iceland and Faroese) are insteresting because they represent different concepts: 'to take hold of something' (which also is the idea behind French "comprendre" et al., and probably Portuguese "entender") versus 'separate'/'distinguish' (in Danish we do have the word "skelne", but it is not used with the meaning 'understand' - we use "forstå", but also "fatte" which means 'grasp'). The 'social' interpretation of the words with a prefix and a word meaning 'stand' is a third possibility. And Romanian "înțelege" goes back to Latin "intelligere", which may have had the original meaning "to select among" (Chambers). So clearly the notion of understanding isn't a simple one. Edited by Iversen on 19 October 2012 at 11:42am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4713 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 146 of 261 19 October 2012 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Funny you say "fatte" is used in Danish ("fatta"in Swedish) because in Dutch, there are
a whole host of different words to describe the concept of understanding, and they've all got some etymological connection to the words already mentioned. We have "verstaan" (which is from the same root as "verstehen"), but this is only used in the context of language really "Ik versta je Spaans" etc. We have "begrijpen" (where grijpen is to grasp or to take hold of something, like the Swedish verb gripa) - this is understanding in a general sense and it's the most common verb. "Ik begrijp de wiskunde niet" (I don't understand the mathematics of that). And then, in a colloquial and dialectical register (not commonly used in the west, but common in Brabantian dialect for example) is the word "vatten" which can also mean to take hold of something like in the proverb "de koe bij de horens vatten", but in that register also means to understand. "Hij vat het niet" (he doesn't get it), "Vat je 'm" (Do you get the joke?), etc. So it seems the idea of to "grasp" is important. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5232 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 147 of 261 19 October 2012 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Amazingly (or maybe not :), this is replicated as well in Spanish, and thus probably in other Romance languages and maybe even Latin.
Thinking about it, we also have non-affixed verbs that came to mean 'understand', and also originally meant (and mean sometimes) 'to take hold of': captar, and in the lower registers, also 'pillar' or (outside Mexico, of course) 'coger', which translate pretty well to the English colloquial use of 'get' to which tarvos beat me. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Flarioca Heptaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5888 days ago 635 posts - 816 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Catalan, Mandarin | Message 148 of 261 20 October 2012 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Indeed, we also have captar as a possible way to translate verstehen in Portuguese, but I would say that this conveys the idea of understanding in a weaker sense. And this brings us to erfassen in German, which according to Langenscheidt and Linguee means both understand and catch!! Edit: Couldn't resist to look for the etymology of captar. It comes from Latin captare with the Indoeuropean root kap-, which should had the meaning of grab. This is the root for German Haft, which is both the word for arrest and a sufix that transforms nouns into adjectives like mädchenhaft. Edited by Flarioca on 20 October 2012 at 4:51pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4713 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 149 of 261 20 October 2012 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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In English you can even say "I didn't quite catch that..."
1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Flarioca Heptaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5888 days ago 635 posts - 816 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Catalan, Mandarin | Message 150 of 261 21 October 2012 at 11:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I'm sorry to change topics, but I was also doing this exercise.
I've chosen some words, in order to represent most of the possible sounds in German. I wrote a text and it will hopefully be corrected, either here or in Lang-8. I've already a phonetical transcription of it, but would, of course, modify it according to the corrections. Latter on I'll memorize it and try to record myself, not to proof any kind of oral fluency, which I don't have, but to have this as a sound pattern to help me improve my German accent. Any further comment or suggestion will be welcome. ************************************************************ * Phonetik und Grammatik Es sollte dir eine Lehre sein, dass bei Regnen auch ein Baum als Unterstand dienen kann. Und wenn man über die Bäume spricht, gibt es eine Schlacht, die wahnsinnig ist. Obwohl ich ein Ingenieur bin, tut es mir eigentlich Leid, dass unsere Dschungel vergehen. Natürlich glauben wir, dass wir viel Geld brauchen, weil man einen Sohn oder ein Paar Söhne hat. Aber die Sonne wird immer wieder kommen, und man könnte nur von Äpfel und anderen Früchten, ebenso wie Gemüse, leben. Nein, ich glaube nicht, dass die Freiheit nur geschieht, wenn wir noch einmal keine Währungen und keine Könige haben. Meiner Meinung nach, das Leben in einer Höhle muss fast so schlecht als das Leben in Hölle sein. Ich liebe die Eulen, aber wir sollten auch Euler sehr dankbar sein, weil wir heutzutage Flughafen haben. Außerdem lerne ich gern Deutsch und das wäre sehr schwer passiert, falls man keine Technologie hätte. Ferner bin ich nicht derselbe, der ich früher war. Als Junger dachte ich, dass während einer arbeitete, standen die Anderen müßig herum. Heute würde ich gern ein üppiges Dasein haben, und zwar am üppigsten, mit einem goldenen Löffel im Mund geboren worden sein. Zwar bewahre ich freudig Katze und andere Tiere, ist es auch wahr, dass ich wirklich müde bin, sobald man uns sagen will, dass wir nicht gut seien, weil wir die Leute sind, die Ameisen töten. Deswegen haben wir oft das Gefühl, dass unsere Tätigkeiten immer mehr beachtet werden. Obgleich man heute darüber offen sprechen kann, es ist nie klar, ob wir diese Erlaubnis für immer haben werden. Wir sind ähnlich, aber es sichert nicht ab, dass unsere Meinungen sich vereinigen werden, ganz im Gegenteil! Ein Wort hat nur wenige Kraft. Viele Grüße aus Brasilien. Auf Wiedersehen. ***************** ************************************************************ * foːˈneːtɪk ʊnt ɡʀaˈmatɪk ɛs ˈzɔltə diːɐ̯ ˈaɪ̯nə ˈleːʀə ˈzaɪ̯n, das baɪ̯ ˈʀeːɡən aʊ̯χ aɪ̯n baʊ̯m als ˈʊntɐʃtant ˈdiːnən kan. ʊnt vɛn man ˈyːbɐ diː ˈbɔɪ̯mə ˈʃpʀɪçt, ɡiːpt ɛs aɪ̯nə ʃlaxt, diː ˈvaːnˌzɪnɪç ɪst. ɔpˈvoːl ɪç aɪ̯n ɪnʒeˈni̯øːɐ̯ bɪn, tuːt ɛs miːɐ̯ ˈaɪ̯ɡn̩tlɪç laɪ̯t, das ˈʊnzərə ˈdʒʊŋl ˌfɛɐ̯ˈgeːən. natˈtyːɐ̯lɪç ˈɡlaʊ̯bən viːɐ̯, das viːɐ̯ fiːl ˈgɛlt ˈbʀaʊ̯χən, vaɪ̯l man ˈaɪ̯nən zoːn ˈoːdɐ aɪ̯n paːɐ̯ ˈzøːnə hat. ˈaːbɐ diː ˈzɔnə vɪʁt ˈɪmɐ ˈviːdɐ ˈkɔmən, ʊnt man ˈkœntə ˈnuːɐ̯ fɔn ˈʔapfl̩ ʊnt ˈandəʁən ˈfʀʏçtn̩, ˈeːbənzoː viː ɡəmyːzə, ˈleːbn̩. naɪ̯n, ɪç ˈɡlaʊ̯bə nɪçt, das diː ˈfʀaɪ̯haɪ̯t ˈnuːɐ̯ ɡəˈʃiːt, vɛn viːɐ̯ nɔχ ˈaɪnmaːl kaɪ̯nə ˈvɛːʀʊŋən ʊnt kaɪ̯nə ˈkøːnɪɡə ˈhaːbən. maɪ̯nɐ maɪ̯nʊŋ naːχ, das ˈleːbn̩ ɪn ˈaɪ̯nɐ ˈhøːlə mʊs fast zoː ʃlɛçt als das ˈleːbn̩ ɪn ˈhœlə ˈzaɪ̯n. ɪç ˈliːbə diː ˈʔɔɪ̯lən, ˈaːbɐ viːɐ̯ ˈzɔltn̩ aʊ̯χ ˈɔʏ̯lɐ zeːɐ̯ ˈdaŋkbaːɐ̯ ˈzaɪ̯n, vaɪ̯l viːɐ̯ ˈhɔɪ̯ttsuːtaːgə ˈfluːkˌhaːfn̩ ˈhaːbən. ˈaʊ̯sɐdeːm ˈlɛʁnə ɪç gɛʁn dɔɪ̯tʃ ʊnt das ˈvɛːʀə zeːɐ̯ ʃveːɐ̯ paˈsiːɐ̯t, fals man kaɪ̯nə ˌtɛçnoloˈgiː ˈhɛtə. ˈfɛʁnɐ bɪn ɪç nɪçt deːɐ̯ˈzɛlbə, deːɐ̯ ɪç ˈfʀyːɐ vaːɐ̯. als ˈjʏŋɐ ˈdaχtə ɪç, das ˈvɛːʀənt ˈaɪ̯nɐ ˈaʁbaɪ̯tətə, ˈʃtandn̩ diː ˈandəʁən ˈmyːsɪç həˈʀʊm. ˈhɔɪtə ˈvʏʁdə ɪç gɛʁn aɪ̯n ˈʏpɪgəs daːzain ˈhaːbən, ʊnt tsvaːɐ̯ am ˈʏpɪçstn̩, mɪt ˈaɪ̯nəm ˈɡɔldənən ˈlœfl̩ ɪm mʊnt ɡɘˈboːʀən ˈvɔʁdən ˈzaɪ̯n. tsvaːɐ̯ bəˈvaːʀə ˈfʀɔydɪç ˈkatsə ʊnt ˈandəʀə tiːʀə, ɪst ɛs aʊ̯χ vaːɐ̯, das ɪç ˈvɪʁklɪç ˈmyːdə bɪn, zoˈbalt man ʊns ˈzaːgŋ vɪl, das viːɐ̯ nɪçt guːt zaɪən, vaɪ̯l viːɐ̯ diː ˈlɔɪ̯tə zɪnt, diː ˈaːmaɪ̯zn̩ ˈtøːtn̩. ˈdɛsveːɡn̩ ˈhaːbən viːɐ̯ ɔft das ɡeˈfyːl, das ˈʊnzərə ˈtɛːtiɪçˌkaɪ̯tn̩ ˈɪmɐ meːɐ̯ ˌbəˈʔaχtət ˈveːɐ̯dn̩. ɔpˈɡlaɪ̯ç man ˈhɔɪtə daˈʀyːbɐ ˈɔfn̩ ˈʃpʀɛçn̩ kan, ɛs ɪst niː klaːɐ̯, ɔp viːɐ̯ ˈdiːzɐ ɛɐ̯ˈlaʊ̯pnɪs fyːɐ̯ ˈɪmɐ ˈhaːbən ˈveːɐ̯dn̩. viːɐ̯ zɪnt ˈɛːnlɪç, ˈaːbɐ ɛs ˈzɪçɐt nɪçt ap, das ˈʊnzərə ˈmaɪ̯nʊŋən zɪç fɛɐ̯ˈʔaɪ̯nɪɡən ˈveːɐ̯dn̩, ɡants ɪm ˈɡeːɡn̩taɪ̯l! aɪ̯n vɔʁt hat ˈnuːɐ̯ ˈveːnɪɡɐ kʀaft. ˈfiːlə ˈɡʀyːsə aʊ̯s bʀaˈziːli̯ən. aʊ̯f ˈviːdɐˌzeːən. Edited by Flarioca on 21 October 2012 at 11:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4850 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 151 of 261 22 October 2012 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Hier ist eine korrigierte Version des Texts. Für deine phonetische Umschrift solltest du beachten, dass Vokale am Wortanfang immer einen Glottis-Verschlusslaut [ʔ] haben. Außerdem ist ein R nach einem Vokal normalerweise kein [ʁ], sondern ein [ɐ̯] - jedenfalls in Norddeutschland. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Flarioca Heptaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5888 days ago 635 posts - 816 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Catalan, Mandarin | Message 152 of 261 22 October 2012 at 11:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Danke für deine tolle Unterstüzung!
Although it is certain that my accent is still too bad to let me worry much about some subtleties, it is nice to know them in advance. Hopefully, they'll become important in the future. It was not at all clear for me that all initial vowels in German carries the ʔ. Thanks for the tip! I'm quite sure that it will not be easy to incorporate that in my accent, but it is certainly worth some effort.
I've seen this in many sources for words like vergehen [ˌfɛɐ̯ˈgeːən] and immer [ˈɪmɐ] (ops, [ˈʔɪmɐ]). However, in words like gern [ɡɛʁn], this [ʁ] (or [r] or [ʀ], depending on the source), often appears. It seems that the /r/ sound is not an easy choice for us foreigners, and, of course, in Munich I've heard their very special bayrisch /r/ :-))
Yes, Leonhard Euler. I've tried to use similar sounds in sequence. I've also understood from here that the /t/ before a vowel (and not only there) in German will always be a [tʰ]. Is that right? Danke sehr noch einmal! Edit: Many (but not all) mistakes are gone. Edited by Flarioca on 23 October 2012 at 2:17am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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