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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4850 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes  Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 153 of 261 24 October 2012 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, but that's not all! Additionally, /p/ and /k/ will be [pʰ] and [kʰ]. The correct realisation of /r/ in words like 'gern' is debatable and will depend on regional varieties. Generally speaking, you won't go wrong if you pronounce it [ʁ], but I myself say [ɐ̯]. Edited by Josquin on 24 October 2012 at 8:50pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Flarioca Heptaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5888 days ago 635 posts - 816 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Catalan, Mandarin | Message 154 of 261 24 October 2012 at 10:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
Thanks, again. It certainly takes some time to improve ones accent based on these phonetical informations, but I believe that it will also help the improvement of oral understanding, even more when people speak more informally and fast. Edited by Flarioca on 24 October 2012 at 10:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Flarioca Heptaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5888 days ago 635 posts - 816 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Catalan, Mandarin | Message 155 of 261 27 October 2012 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | |||||
Here is the phonetic transcription of your text. I've kept Ferner instead of Außerdem and Erlaubnis instead of Freiheit. I'm aware that the first word is outdated and I'm not sure that the second is possible in this context. Anyway, my choice is just to avoid word repetition. ********************************************************* Phonetik und Grammatik (Korrektur von Josquin, mit zwei Ausnahmen) Es sollte dir eine Lehre sein, dass bei Regen auch ein Baum als Unterstand dienen kann. Und wenn man über Bäume spricht, gibt es eine Auseinandersetzung, die wahnsinnig ist. Obwohl ich Ingenieur bin, tut es mir eigentlich leid, dass unsere Dschungel verschwinden. Natürlich glauben wir, dass wir viel Geld brauchen, weil man einen Sohn oder ein paar Söhne hat. Aber die Sonne wird immer wieder scheinen, und man könnte nur von Äpfeln und anderen Früchten, ebenso wie von Gemüse, leben. Nein, ich glaube nicht, dass wir nur dann Freiheit haben, wenn wir noch einmal keine Währungen und keine Könige haben. Meiner Meinung nach muss das Leben in einer Höhle fast so schlecht sein wie das Leben in der Hölle. Ich liebe Eulen, aber wir sollten auch Euler sehr dankbar sein, weil wir heutzutage Flughäfen haben. Außerdem lerne ich gerne Deutsch und das wäre kaum geschehen, wenn es keine moderne Technologie gäbe. Ferner bin ich nicht derselbe, der ich früher war. Als Junge dachte ich, dass, während einer arbeitet, die anderen müßig herumstünden. Heute würde ich gern ein üppiges Dasein haben, und zwar am besten, mit einem goldenen Löffel im Mund geboren worden zu sein. Zwar hüte ich freudig Katzen und andere Tiere, aber es ist auch wahr, dass ich wirklich müde werde, sobald man uns sagen will, dass wir nicht gut seien, weil wir Ameisen töten. Deswegen haben wir oft das Gefühl, dass unsere Tätigkeiten immer mehr beachtet werden. Obgleich man heute darüber offen sprechen kann, ist es nicht klar, ob wir diese Erlaubnis für immer haben werden. Wir sind uns ähnlich, aber es ist nicht sicher, ob unsere Meinungen übereinstimmen werden, ganz im Gegenteil! Ein Wort hat nur wenig Kraft. Viele Grüße aus Brasilien. Auf Wiedersehen. ****************************************************** foːˈneːtɪk ʔʊnt ɡʀaˈmatɪk ʔɛs ˈzɔltə diːɐ̯ ˈʔaɪ̯nə ˈleːʀə ˈzaɪ̯n, das baɪ̯ ˈʀeːɡən ʔaʊ̯χ ʔaɪ̯n baʊ̯m ʔals ˈʊntɐʃtant ˈdiːnən kan. ʔʊnt vɛn man ˈʔyːbɐ diː ˈbɔɪ̯mə ˈʃpʀɪçt, ɡiːpt ɛs ʔaɪ̯nə ʔaʊ̯sʔaɪ̯ˈnandɐˌzɛʦʊŋ, diː ˈvaːnˌzɪnɪç ʔɪst. ʔɔpˈvoːl ʔɪç ʔaɪ̯n ʔɪnʒeˈni̯øːɐ̯ bɪn, tuːt ʔɛs miːɐ̯ ˈʔaɪ̯ɡn̩tlɪç laɪ̯t, das ˈʔʊnzərə ˈdʒʊŋl ˌfɛɐ̯ˈʃvɪndn̩. natˈtyːɐ̯lɪç ˈɡlaʊ̯bən viːɐ̯, das viːɐ̯ fiːl ˈgɛlt ˈbʀaʊ̯χən, vaɪ̯l man ˈʔaɪ̯nən zoːn ˈʔoːdɐ ʔaɪ̯n paːɐ̯ ˈzøːnə hat. ˈʔaːbɐ diː ˈzɔnə vɪʁt ˈʔɪmɐ ˈviːdɐ ˈʃaɪ̯nən, ʔʊnt man ˈkœntə ˈnuːɐ̯ fɔn ˈʔapfl̩ ʔʊnt ˈʔandəʁən ˈfʀʏçtn̩, ˈʔeːbənzoː viː ɡəmyːzə, ˈleːbn̩. naɪ̯n, ʔɪç ˈɡlaʊ̯bə nɪçt, das viːɐ̯ ˈnuːɐ̯ dan ˈfʀaɪ̯haɪ̯t ˈhaːbən, vɛn viːɐ̯ nɔχ ˈʔaɪnmaːl kaɪ̯nə ˈvɛːʀʊŋən ʔʊnt kaɪ̯nə ˈkøːnɪɡə ˈhaːbən. maɪ̯nɐ maɪ̯nʊŋ naːχ, mʊs das ˈleːbn̩ ʔɪn ˈʔaɪ̯nɐ ˈhøːlə fast zoː ʃlɛçt ˈzaɪ̯n viː das ˈleːbn̩ ʔɪn deːɐ̯ ˈhœlə. ʔɪç ˈliːbə ˈʔɔɪ̯lən, ˈʔaːbɐ viːɐ̯ ˈzɔltn̩ ʔaʊ̯χ ˈʔɔʏ̯lɐ zeːɐ̯ ˈdaŋkbaːɐ̯ ˈzaɪ̯n, vaɪ̯l viːɐ̯ ˈhɔɪ̯ttsuːtaːgə ˈfluːkˌhaːfn̩ ˈhaːbən. ˈʔaʊ̯sɐdeːm ˈlɛʁnə ʔɪç ˈɡɛʁnə dɔɪ̯tʃ ʔʊnt das ˈvɛːʀə kaʊ̯m ɡəˈʃeːən, vɛn ʔɛs kaɪ̯nə mɔˈdɛʁn ˌtɛçnoloˈgiː ˈɡɛːbə. ˈfɛʁnɐ bɪn ʔɪç nɪçt deːɐ̯ˈzɛlbə, deːɐ̯ ʔɪç ˈfʀyːɐ vaːɐ̯. ʔals ˈjʏŋɐ ˈdaχtə ʔɪç, das ˈvɛːʀənt ˈaʔɪ̯nɐ ˈʔaʁbaɪ̯tət, diː ˈʔandəʁən ˈmyːsɪç həˈʀʊmˌʃtʊndn̩. ˈhɔɪtə ˈvʏʁdə ʔɪç gɛʁn ʔaɪ̯n ˈʔʏpɪgəs daːzain ˈhaːbən, ʔʊnt ʦvaːɐ̯ ʔam ˈbɛstn̩, mɪt ˈʔaɪ̯nəm ˈɡɔldənən ˈlœfl̩ ʔɪm mʊnt ɡɘˈboːʀən ˈvɔʁdən ˈzaɪ̯n. ʦvaːɐ̯ ˈhyːtə ʔɪç ˈfʀɔydɪç ˈkatsə ʔʊnt ˈʔandəʀə tiːʀə, ˈʔaːbɐ ʔɛs ʔɪst ʔaʊ̯χ vaːɐ̯, das ʔɪç ˈvɪʁklɪç ˈmyːdə ˈvɛʁdə, zoˈbalt man ʔʊns ˈzaːgŋ vɪl, das viːɐ̯ nɪçt guːt zaɪən, vaɪ̯l viːɐ̯ ˈʔaːmaɪ̯zn̩ ˈtøːtn̩. ˈdɛsveːɡn̩ ˈhaːbən viːɐ̯ ʔɔft das ɡeˈfyːl, das ˈʔʊnzərə ˈtɛːtiɪçˌkaɪ̯tn̩ ˈʔɪmɐ meːɐ̯ ˌbəˈʔaχtət ˈveːɐ̯dn̩. ʔɔpˈɡlaɪ̯ç man ˈhɔɪtə daˈʀyːbɐ ˈɔfn̩ ˈʃpʀɛçn̩ kan, ʔɛs ʔɪst niː klaːɐ̯, ʔɔp viːɐ̯ ˈdiːzɐ ʔɛɐ̯ˈlaʊ̯pnɪs fyːɐ̯ ˈʔɪmɐ ˈhaːbən ˈveːɐ̯dn̩. viːɐ̯ zɪnt ʔʊns ˈʔɛːnlɪç, ˈʔaːbɐ ʔɛs ʔɪst nɪçt ˈzɪçɐ, ɔp ˈʔʊnzərə ˈmaɪ̯nʊŋən y:bɐˈʔaɪ̯nˌʃtɪmən ˈveːɐ̯dn̩, ɡanʦ ʔɪm ˈɡeːɡn̩taɪ̯l! ʔaɪ̯n vɔʁt hat ˈnuːɐ̯ ˈveːnɪɡɐ kʀaft. ˈfiːlə ˈɡʀyːsə ʔaʊ̯s bʀaˈziːli̯ən. ʔaʊ̯f ˈviːdɐˌzeːən. Edited by Flarioca on 02 November 2012 at 3:41am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4834 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 156 of 261 28 October 2012 at 1:44am | IP Logged | |||||
Just realised that another fun aspect of Chrome is that I'm not seeing a lot of these phonetic markings, and was confused for a while - it's probably something in the setup that can be sorted out - I had a quick peek in IE and could see more - not sure if all though. Hopefully I'll sort that out. One question though on a character/marking I can see above: [tʰ] (in case that gets mangled, it is a t with a superscript h ) Does this have anything in the slightest to do with words like "tun" in 19th century (& maybe earlier) texts being spelled "thun", or is that a coincidence or unrelated? Thanks. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4850 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 157 of 261 28 October 2012 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, I think so. The funny thing is, when Konrad Duden published his reformed spelling in 1901, all the th's were reduced to simple t's except in the word 'Thron'. Rumour has it Kaiser Wilhelm himself didn't want the word to be spelled *Tron. EDIT: After giving it a little thought, the real reason might have been the fact that "Thron" is a loanword from Ancient Greek θρόνος. But in French, it's neverteless spelled "trône" -- without h. Maybe, it was Kaiser Wilhelm after all. Who knows? Edited by Josquin on 28 October 2012 at 6:06pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4834 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 158 of 261 29 October 2012 at 1:39am | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks Josquin. I'm currently reading an edition of Fontane's "Frau Jenny Treibel" which is in the original orthography, and it's full of "thun"'s etc, as well as other odd orthographic usages (like possessive apostrophe-s! - wonder if he got that from English?).
To go back to the previous subject, I dug out my too long neglected "A Guide to Old English" (Mitchell and Robinson, 7th Edition). There is a separate word "understandan", which has secondary meanings "appreciate", and "feel", as well as "understand". (in addition to forstandan, which has a secondary meaning of "withstand", as well as "understand"). There isn't an explicit explanation of the difference between these words, but one might get an idea by studying the example texts, of which there are quite a few, including part of Beowulf. The letter "v" does not seem to have existed at this time, so there are no "vor" or "ver" prefixes, and don't seem to be any "wer" or "wor" prefixes either. There are plenty of words with "for" though. In the section on prefixes, for is given as being an intensifier, e.g. forbærnan, "to burn-up". consume. forlorenness (fem) "perdition". forheard - "very hard". (Interestingly, the prefix "ymh" means "around", e.g. ymhgang "circuit" "cirmumference", umlædan - "lead around".) Old English seems to have been surprisingly complex. I wonder if it was more or less complex than say, modern Icelandic? 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Flarioca Heptaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5888 days ago 635 posts - 816 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Catalan, Mandarin | Message 159 of 261 29 October 2012 at 2:45am | IP Logged | |||||
Very interesting comments, thank you both! I've also observed some differently spelled words when I was reading "Effi Briest", but that really wasn't my main problem with this text. By the way, I'm reading "Siddhartha" by Hermann Hesse and really enjoying it, although I'm not at all a religious man. Edited by Flarioca on 29 October 2012 at 2:46am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4834 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 160 of 261 30 October 2012 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Flarioca,
As we were talking about some aspects of pronunciation here, I hope you don't mind if I use this space to ask Josquin what he thinks of the "Standard" German pronunciations given here: Sound Comparisons I was rather surprised to hear the speaker almost suppressing her "r" sounds, in words like "Dorn", and there seems to be no trace at the end of words like "Bruder", "Sehr", where I would expect to hear something (and I try to produce something when I'm saying these words). And the lack of any "r" seems to be reflected in the IPA, assuming I'm seeing the IPA correctly. On the other hand, the r in "schwör" is pretty much what I would expect (except that the actually said it in the infinitive). The word below is not "Träne" either, so obviously there are a few mistakes in this table. I think I would, however, expect to hear at least some sort of "r" in Dorn, for example, also "Korn". Her "Erde" is also a bit surprising. There again "trinken" is what I would expect. I tell myself that I can hear an "r" in her "Herz", although it doesn't seem to be in the IPA. It is possible that I have learned to expect a more exaggerated version of "r" in recent months, having been listening to a lot of audiobooks, which happened to be recorded by Gert Wesphal. At first when I heard him I thought he was rather overdoing his "r"s, but now perhaps I take that for the norm. Looking at his Wikipedia entry, I can't see anything that would suggest he's anything but a speaker of fairly standard German. I did wonder whether he used a more "theatrical" pronunciation than people in everyday life. And perhaps I do tend to exaggerate the "r" to make it not come over as an "English r". 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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