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The importance of a good accent | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5449 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes  Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 153 of 255 16 December 2010 at 9:40pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
that's all OK, but what if you have to manage the resources (time in this case)? Like s_allard, I'm pretty sure I am fairly limited in imitating sounds and it would take me an awful lot of time to get to the near-native accent (I've done the experiment yesterday with one English sound, and, I mean, really, no way I could do that for the whole language :) - I'm sure I would achieve reading fluency in a new language for the same amount time).
Why are you ignoring my reference to practicality? Aim for whatever you want, you will know if people are distracted by your accent or not. If you achieve the level where they are not, it doesn't matter much what you were aiming for. Edited by Aineko on 16 December 2010 at 9:40pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 154 of 255 16 December 2010 at 10:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I couldn't care less about bicycle racing. I like biking a lot, though, but if I met someone who told me that I shouldn't just be biking to work, that I should be training to be the fastest I can be, I simply wouldn't care -- as long as it gets me to work.
Is that what you mean, Aineko? However, if I lived in a society full of cyclists where not being up there with the fastest could potentially harm my chances of success in life, I'd probably start caring. Maybe our perception of the potential limitations is different. I care a lot about speaking my languages as well as possible. I want to speak so well that I could go unnoticed among native speakers. Perhaps I feel that I will gain better access to their culture if I do. Perhaps I feel that I would be missing out on something if I didn't. Perhaps it's just that I enjoy pushing my limits. I've had a few conversations with strangers (on the bus, etc.) where they've revealed such things as hatred for francophones, or disgust for all things French in Canada. I could never have had access to that were it not for the efforts I put in. I'm not saying hearing such things was my goal, but gaining deeper insight into the culture is one of the rewards. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5449 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 155 of 255 16 December 2010 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I guess that's close to what I'm saying, but I really don't like these analogies. Language is such a unique phenomenon in human species/culture, with such a distinctive role that these analogies never do the justice.
I'm sure it is about perception. I'm an immigrant with a foreign accent and never had any problems or limitations because of it. Even in situations when you could expect them. For example, at one period of time I wanted some extra money and decided to look for a part- time job. Because I thought (wrongly, as it turned out) that I can't find suitable scientific part-time job, I applied for jobs like a cashier at the supermarket, waitress and a call centre operator. I went personally or called, so they knew my accent (coz even I thought it might be the problem). I got called back for two out of three jobs. Ok, I am in science, in academic environment, place where people couldn't care less about your accent, but these are not the only circles I found myself in. There are other spheres of my life and of course family and friends of my partner and accent simply never mattered. Not for me not for my foreign friends here.
I'm lucky to be in an immigrant country, but my friends from university (of whom 80% have also left Serbia) are in different countries. From both their experience and from experience of having Serbian passport in probably the worse time in history to have that passport - I know very well about xenophobia. I don't need some accent related experience to teach me about it. However, as I already said - I don't see this as a problem with my accent. I see this as a problem of people being people. Edited by Aineko on 16 December 2010 at 11:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 156 of 255 16 December 2010 at 11:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I've given up trying to follow all the analogies and metaphors. I'll try to speak directly to the issue at hand. I think we seem to agree that in speaking a foreign language you do the best you can. Is that a problem for anybody? Nobody has said that speaking with a bad accent is good or that you should settle for mediocrity because "you can make yourself understood". It seems to me that everybody would also agree that "I want to speak so well that I could go unnoticed among native speakers" is a perfectly valid goal. I appreciate and respect that. I think most people here do as well.
The only problem seems to be that some people believe that this should be the only goal of speaking a foreign language. Furthermore, if you don't go unnoticed then you are missing something, your other language skills are probably lacking and you are content with mediocrity. Obviously I disagree. I don't see the necessity to go unnoticed among native speakers. In fact, for most of the world's languages, I don't think I could ever go unnoticed even if I spoke like a native. If I spoke Mandarin or Swahili like a native, I think I would be very noticed and I'll end up on Youtube. I learn languages to appreciate a culture and a people. I just finished watching a Mexican film with the director's commentary in Spanish. It was a wonderful experience to be able to enjoy the film through the words of the creators. I hope to go to Mexico some time next year to take this experience to a higher level. Do I want to go unnoticed in Mexico? To me it's a strange question. Why would I want to do that? So that Mexicans can tell me in an unguarded moment that they don't like gringos, little knowing that I'm one? I don't care about going unnoticed. I want to be at ease; I want to feel comfortable in the language. For that I'm working hard as hell on my grammar and vocabulary because there is where my weaknesses lie. I've watched the film four times and I intend to watch it as many times as necessary to pick up all the little details about Mexican usage that I can. Actually, I think that my pronunciation is probably improving as well. I believe that grammar and vocabulary are the foundation of language proficiency. The key to fluency (in a technical sense) is to have a clear mental image of what you want to say. I concentrate specifically on technical vocabulary and idioms because this is what really distinguishes the sophisticated user. When I listen to most English-speakers speaking French what I notice most is not the accent; it's the awful grammar and the lack of lexical accuracy. If these are very good, the foreign accent recedes into the background. I think the cause of much misunderstanding here is really an optical illusion. Very good accent usually goes with good everything else. You rarely see someone with an impeccable accent and terrible grammar. But that does not mean, as some would have us believe, that phonetic ability is the main driver. I think it's the exact opposite. I think grammar and vocabulary drive everything else. My greatest frustration in Spanish is not struggling with the jota or the rolled r. As happened to me this afternoon, it's going into a bicycle shop and not being able to say in Spanish that I have a slow leak in my rear inner tube. I tend to believe that pronunciation will take care of itself as our general proficiency progresses. I'm not saying that it's not important or that I don't care. I'm simply saying that working on grammar and vocabulary for speaking will inevitably lead to paying attention to how they are rendered phonetically Edited by s_allard on 16 December 2010 at 11:38pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| 1qaz2wsx Diglot Groupie Greece Joined 5374 days ago 98 posts - 124 votes Speaks: Greek*, EnglishC1 Studies: Russian, Albanian | Message 157 of 255 18 December 2010 at 3:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Far more important than accent is fluency.The accent has to be acceptable,understandable.Natives will not mind if you are fluent in their language and you have an accent they can understand without much effort.It does not have to be perfect or native-like.Just understandable.They will mind if you are not fluent and you have a good accent or if you are fluent with a very heavy,for them, accent.
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| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 158 of 255 18 December 2010 at 5:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
A good accent results in better fluency. Every language has its own phonotactics -- sounds that are possible to say together and sounds that aren't. In many cases, strings of sounds that seem difficult to the learner are made much easier when the sounds are pronounced more like a native speaker's accent. After all, every language is easy for its speakers, right? Languages with svarbhakti vowels are a particular example. Most people end up learning the svarbhakti vowel as a distinct phoneme, a syllable of its own. But if you learn the accent, the svarbhakti is incidental. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| 1qaz2wsx Diglot Groupie Greece Joined 5374 days ago 98 posts - 124 votes Speaks: Greek*, EnglishC1 Studies: Russian, Albanian | Message 159 of 255 18 December 2010 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I disagree there.Accent and fluency do not go hand in hand.You can speak with an entirely alien accent and still be fluent in a language.Take for example Scottish English or Irish English.The accent is different and it is probably closer to the accent of the Celtic languages these people formerly spoke but they are still fluent in English. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 160 of 255 18 December 2010 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
You say you disagree, but what you say isn't contradictory to what I said. I said "a good accent results in better fluency", I did not say that a good accent is necessary for fluency. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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